A Satmar Ladies' Event
As a Satmar Williamsburg graduate, I attended the Satmar Bikkur Cholim party along with most of my classmates. It was on odd sensation - looking around the table and wondering how many of my friends also reside in two worlds. Cyberspace and Williamsburg. Two ends of the spectrum. I wondered how many of them might have chanced upon this blog. I also realized that I didn't really feel inclined to share with any of them anything regarding my online adventures. Not surprising - since very many of these women haven't ever heard of the term 'blog' or what blogging entails. And while some of these women do have a computer at home, many of them don't - and would probably consider it morally reprehensible. They might even be right. I didn't feel that it was necessary to say something that might offend.
Yet in spite of the fact that the majority of these women were 'missing out' on all the wonders of the World Wide Web, there was a lot laughter going around. I was once again surrounded by an intelligent group of girls who enjoyed discussing topics to death. We were surprised to realize that it was just yesterday that we looked the future in the eye, daring it to come and get us. Yet it came, it conquered, and we're better for it.
Throughout our conversations, I was looking for the disillusioned, unhappy faces that are said to be so dominant in our awfully ghettoed community. I wondered where those that have been disenchanted by our 'restrictive rules' were sitting. And then I realized that had they been upset with the 'system' they probably never would have shown up at this party. So apparently I was right all along. The rebellion that is so active online is practically non-existent within the community. There was an auditorium filled with over 2,000 beautiful, talented, intelligent women - who were living the lives they wanted to, and occupying themselves with what they wanted to do.
I have a classmate that has 5 sons. FIVE! She is 26 years old and she has 5 kids! I was about to get mad. Seriously mad. No woman should be subjected to that kind of life! When it suddenly dawned on me... She wanted it. Every woman at the table was discussing the pros and cons and above all the 'Why did she?'. Yes, every woman at the table was aware that they have a choice in the matter. But the woman in question - who is said to be one of the most relaxed mothers there is - actually commented that she would have no problem having five more sons. Foolish? maybe. Forced into anything? not at all. Many of my friends are relating that their husbands are the ones suggesting that they've done their duty (at least for the time being) in 'being fruitful' - but THEY are the ones who want another baby to hold... to cuddle. There are some who love motherhood - not because they were raised to admire it, but because it truly gives them satisfaction. Just like there are those who do not have the patience for it.
After worrying for so long that the public needs to be educated about the 'choices' available, I've come to realize that very many are content because they've already chosen exactly how they want to live their lives. If we truly care about these women's contentment - perhaps we just ought to leave them be.
posted by Totally Content @ 11/28/2005 11:58:00 PM
28 comments
28 Comments:
There are those mothers who love the feeling of holding a baby, you are correct it gives them satisfaction, it gives them a sense of achievement. They are that way because that is how our religion conditions them.
I am not saying that it is a bad thing, but it is not a choice thing. Those who don’t, can find it tough to get an extended “hetter” to have a break.
Of course we should leave happy people alone. Who would disagree with that??
There was an auditorium filled with over 2,000 beautiful, talented, intelligent women who discussed all the wonders and metzias they found at Daffy's and Century.
this is the reasons for high fences, not to keep thieves out, you know the rest
Frummer - It isn't our religion that conditions these women to love babies. Although it would be fair to say that our 'traditions' have gotten them used to the concept. Regardless of how they came about those feelings regarding children - the fact remains that they like it.
You are saying that it is not a bad thing - yet you go on to say there is no choice. But saying that one has no choice in a matter that they are entitled to one – would be implying that it IS bad thing. All the same – doing something that is good – whether by choice or by default – it still IS a good thing.
As for the 'heter', it is attainable for those who know where - and how - to ask for it. If the woman is doing the asking - she need not go further than say 'I don't want to now'. Al pi halacha that is enough to give her the break.
Who disagrees with leaving happy people alone? All those that claim that this insular community is causing people to feel stifled and oppressed. That assertion comes with the suggestion that we break down these 'walls'. I stand by my claim that there are no WALLS, just a pretty little picket fence. And those that have set up their homes contently in this little garden would find the removal of this fence very disconcerting.
Sheitel I was at that party too. And I was looking out for these women too. All I heard was amazement at the speaker I heard no conversations about daffy's or century. Or any sales whatsoever We were discussing our lives and the meaning of being frum after the speaker a 24 year old convert was telling US the beauty of yiddishkeit and she was telling us the emptiness of there way of life. She said she has never seen the likes of a Yiddishe Mama and is amazed at the love a yiddishe mama gives her children I can go on but I think I will leave the writing to you Sheitel I think you will be able to convey it much better.
Happy to be Satmar and to raise my kids that way.
As for the 'heter', it is attainable for those who know where - and how - to ask for it. If the woman is doing the asking - she need not go further than say 'I don't want to now'. Al pi halacha that is enough to give her the break.
YOU ARE WRONG. AL PI HALACHA, ONCE YOU HAVE A BOY AND A GIRL, THERE IS NO NEED TO ASK A SHAILE. THERE IS NO SHAILE.
Anon. You are probably right. Although halachic interpretations do vary as to whether two kids of each gender are necessary - or whether one and one is enough. Regardless, people in the community do sometimes feel more comfortable to have their behavior sanctioned by their rebonim.
And I would greatly appreciate if you would choose a name - any name - and stick to it. This holds true for all you out there who go by anonymous. (If the situation won't change, I'll probably block out anonymous comments.)
--- Throughout our conversations, I was looking for the disillusioned, unhappy faces that are said to be so dominant in our awfully ghettoed community. ---
Not everything that someone feels inside can you know from looking at his or her face. This is true even if as you claim, you have a 145 IQ. Thus, your attempts to determine disillusionment by looking for unhappy faces is not a reasonable method of concluding how people feel. Many people learn to mask their feeling for a Varity of reasons. One common reason is that people realize no one wants to be around someone who is grumpy all the time. You have no evidence for your assertion that the “auditorium [was] filled with over 2,000 beautiful, talented, intelligent women - who were living the lives they wanted to, and occupying themselves with what they wanted to do.”
VFB - Being that attending the party last night was in no way a 'requirement' but rather a personal choice, in light of the company, the event and the entertainment - I would say that all those that chose to show up did so because it was along the lines of what they enjoyed.
The Satmar Bikkur Cholim Party is to a large degree an extension of the lives these women lead.
So therefore I would say that these women's presence was all the 'evidence' I needed.
Shietel, you must be kidding. Keep on painting your true colors
Anon
its interesting to see how people just love to know or just say that the frum people are just so unhappy and living double lives sure there are unhappy people but from those that are is it the frummness that makes them so unhappy? how many people in the secular world are unhappy? Noticed the trend of Prozac prescription is on the rise?it cant be only willy. and btw having friends from all backgrounds I never noticed the people leaving becoming very happy all of a sudden. Am I just naive?
Shietel, how did you like the teichman, ponyovitz biography speeches
I agree with VFB that you really cannot see on someone's face if she is happy with the life she is leading. A lot of people in our community have resigned themselves to leading this life, and that's why they are, but it does not mean that they are happy with it. The reason why they don't seek to change it is usually due to pressure, either from a spouse or parents, or anyone else in the community. So they stick with it.
A friend of mine who just gave birth is keeping herself from going to the mikva for 3 months already out of fear of getting pregnant again soon. Birth control she won't take because it 'doesn't feel right' and "what excuse is she going to use to tell the dayan". And this is a girl who loves and embraces the kind of very strict lifestyle she grew up with. She is not happy with all aspects, such as this one, but is scared to change it. I don't think this is an extreme example; rather, it is a fairly common one. I seriously wonder how many ordinary people don't resent this kind of lifestyle where the first 20-25 years of marriage involve being pregnant, giving birth and getting pregnant again.
Mistake - I found your name endearing... and ironic.
You are apparently angry - scratch that. You are so obviously fuming - and I am still having a difficult time identifying why.
To start with, while incessantly ranting - you aren't saying much at all. You are jumping from topic to topic and I actually am having a difficult time following your train of thought.
Because of the cussing and cyber/teen lingo, I’d assume that you have had some experience on the ‘net. So from your perspective – which one are you? The pot or the kettle?
As for your judgment regarding my position within the community, to quote Mark Twain: Get your facts first. Then you can distort them as you please.
I’ve also heard it said that when we judge or criticize another person, it says nothing about that person; it merely says something about our own need to be critical. Or as Benjamin Disraeli put it: It is easier to be critical than correct.
Der Yid - with that kinda knowledge, am I correct to assume that your name should have been 'Der Yiddene'?
Sheitel,
Please continue posting things about the positive aspects of your community and don't waste time responding to the critics.
ThirtySomething said...
I respect what you are doing to defend your community, but IMHO your being online as a blogger flaunting your knowledge of the secular - or shall we call it the mundane - world, is definitely not beneficial to our cause.
As an aside, someone named Yossi called in to the Zev Brenner show when Ms. Winston was on, and he defended his version of "freedom" of choice in his community by stating proudly that he was an avid movie fan, "and in fact I am going tonight with my friend -- with the beard and peyes and all that (sic) -- to watch a movie. Our wives are perfectly OK with that."
This attitude shames us and causes deep pain for any self respecting Yid, let alone Chassidim.
In the Jewish world we become great first by showing our *love* for G-d and our religion, our love of people, then for our knowledge. But to flaunt foolishness and our lack of fear of Him?
So you are mostly of sound mind and matter, only making you arguments in the wrong place at the wrong time. For fear of upsetting you I will not state unequivocally that you are the wrong person to be defending your community, but can you understand my point?
ThirtySomething said...
Actually, I just finished reading your latest blog, "A Satmar Ladies' Event".
Please keep it up. As much as your writing pains, all the same it uplifts... :-)
sheitel said...
Thirty - I AM the wrong person to be defending the community. I'm not nearly smart enough. But as for place and time, I do think it is the right one.
I too found that Yossi caller’s claims revolting. The fact the he subsequently bragged about his call on this blog - along with the audacious remarks about watching porn to enhance his marital life (?!?!?) was downright appalling. I sincerely would appreciate not being compared to someone as foolish as that.
I've pointed out pretty early on that all the 'secular' knowledge I've attained are not what makes me more intelligent. I would even venture to guess that all the movie watching I've been doing, has been 'dumbing me down'. I am not defending this pursuit of ‘culturalization' - I just wanted to point out that the community is not as judgmental, nor do they have the power to be as restrictive as Ms. Winston asserts.
You are right too when you point out that our love for Our God and His people are our first and most important characteristics. Knowledge though, while secondary – is not unimportant. I don’t see how displaying an interest in that area defends Hella’s point. Quite the contrary. I feel that it just proves that intellectual pursuits need not lead to the rejection of our beliefs.
--- She shouldve had some Chasidim edit it thought, just to get her facts straight. ---
I am not Chassidish, but fairly knowledgeable about them. I thought that the facts were fairly accurate. What facts do you believe she got wrong?
Racism aside, you haven't made your point. I AM proud of my community - and precisely because it IS home.
I've admitted many times that there are faults in this community just like there are faults in every community. Yet you happen to have missed that point by a mile. [You ask if it would be considered positive if children are successfully sheltered from that which their parents deem inappropriate. In a word: Yes.]
What you seem to be upset at is the fact that I seem to have a different perspective from Hella. While some seem to assume that one removed from the situation can have a clearer perspective, consider that the one on the outside - is just that, an outsider. And as such does not have the opportunity or ability to understand the beauty and joys we experience within our lifestyle.
Example – not the best, but it’s all I can think of at the moment: Let’s say I were to study the male psyche. As much as I can learn accept and even respect their behavior, I can never claim to fully understand. Being of a different gender, I might as well be a different species. We think differently, and different things will bring us pleasure. We can analyze, study, explain and discuss – but at the end of the day, I will never be able to relate.
Just like I can not give you the ‘inside scoop’ on Islam, the Chinese perspective on childrearing, or Japanese Kamikazes; Hella Winston isn’t qualified to share her ‘Inside Scoop’ on this culture that is so alien to her.
VFB - You just proved my point. From an outsider's perspective Hella's 'scoop' seems astoundingly accurate. And that precisely is what has me so riled. She had the outsider's perspective and kept that viewpoint while claiming to portray it from the inside.
I am not concerned about what the heimishe think. We recognize the errors and find them somewhat amusing. My concern though, is for the outside community who is devouring this stuff, and loving the fact that it substantiates their unflattering opinion of us.
Sheitel:
My question was asked to “Mistake” whose text I quoted. I was actually more curious what technical facts he believes she got wrong, not whether he thought that the underlying premise of her book was wrong. By technical facts, I mean things like the fact that she refers to MacDonald Avenue, rather than McDonald Avenue. I was not acknowledging that he was right that there were such mistakes by asking the question. I think that the author was very accurate, and its not true that “She shouldve [sic] had some Chasidim edit it thought, just to get her facts straight.”
The author’s premise is that there are a lot of Chassidim who are miserable because they cannot conform to the standards of the community, but do not have they skill set necessary to be able to leave the community, so instead they choose to lead double lives. “Mistake” most definitely concurs with her premise.
While its true that an insider might know more facts than an outsider, insiders are often more emotionally vested in believing one way or another, and are thus they are less able to be objective. Thus I differ with your basic assertion that insiders are better able to evaluate this premise. Further, even if its true that all people who are insiders are better able to evaluate the premise of the book, its still hardly proves that you are correct. Many people who are just as insiderish as you came to the opposite conclusion.
After reading this blog I think I will make a new bracha every morning:
Shlo Asani Satmar.
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Don't say that. Remember 20000 beautiful women came to the party with smiles on their faces.
That is an indication that they are all delighted with their community, and with their chasidishe lives in general.
One can not argue with scientific facts.
Sheital:
Maybe you want to answer my questions from previous posts???
Or you don't have answers???
You can't fool anyone. Hella's book has sold thousands of copies. Your post hasn't sold one person because you are an insult to our intelligence.
HEY NOW MOD
SHE IS FULL OF IT MOD SHE DIDNT SETTLE YET BUT TRIES TO SETTLE OTHERS
AND MISTAKE, RIGHT ON
SHEITEL IS 1 OF THOSE WHO LOOK AT YOU BEHIND THIER SHOULDERS AND LOOK IF YOU TOOK OF YOUR SEAMS BUT IF YOU GO TO MOVIES SOMETHING SHE DOES THEN ITS OK
WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND YOURS ALIKE
To all who claim that Hella's book is not open for critique, I urge you to check out my blog. I just posted an open letter addressed to Hella.
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