Education vs. Education
All these repetitious comments about how the community is ‘robbing’ us of an education – is, quite frankly, getting on my nerves. These ‘commenters’ make it appear as if EVERYONE in this community is lacking an education, and subsequently goes around illiterate, and with no intelligent thoughts in their heads. Would it be fair to say that of the Chinese? That if they aren't sufficiently well-versed in our culture and in our language, then they are 'uneducated'?
Our children learn a tremendous amount and are certainly taught a LOT! And while it is indeed true that a secular education could benefit many of them as well - MANY are coping amazingly well without it!
I am not condoning the fact that the focus on a secular education is so minimal - I am simply saying that the claim that "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." can just as often be wrong - as it can be right.
I do strongly believe that children deserve to have a – if basic, then at least well-rounded – secular education. I believe they ought to be taught a better English, with the grammar, spelling and writing abilities this subject requires. I believe they deserve to know math – at least enough for them to know how to do their own calculation as to how much interest will accumulate on their mortgages, savings accounts and outstanding credit card bills. I believe they deserve to know the basics of science. Basic history of around the world – as well as that of our own country. And yes, it is indeed about time our boys know a bit more about geography. If only the locations of the country they are discussing, and knowing which capital associates with which state. We girls are taught all this – and way more. Our mothers were too. So therefore we all have the ability and duty to educate our children with all that we deem necessary. To suggest that our schools lessen the amount of religious study in favor of secular studies is unrealistic. As it has been said – every community has its priorities. Raising moral and God-fearing Chasidim is ours.
Yet to claim that our community is depriving us of an education, thus preventing us from having success financially is the laziest excuse of no doubt, the laziest of guys.
While it would of course depend on what you consider 'education', for a moment let’s agree that education would be amassing knowledge in the context that might be beneficial to the individual later on in life. In light of what this community values, and the culture in which it rears its young – you would have to agree that the residents in these parts, are for the most part, well learnt.
In addition to the admittedly culturally biased and mostly religious education, I think it would be important to once again note that our community also has many wonderful advanced-learning programs for those that are so inclined. And if I may say so – These programs are far more beneficial to the recipient – than say… Footsteps?
I truly feel sorry for all of you that find that your education - or lack thereof, has hindered you in your adult life. All I can do is recommend once again that you do better for your kids.
And once and for all - quit the complaining.
posted by Totally Content @ 12/08/2005 01:38:00 AM
67 comments
67 Comments:
You want the kids to be better educated in English, maths and a number of other subjects, yet you don’t want it done at the expense of “religious studies”.
Where then do you propose the time is found to give the extra teaching? The kids are already in school for extraordinary number of hours each day, so the school day can’t be extended.
There’s also the question of how much actual “quality time” is spent teaching Torah, and how much of it is simply wasted, “Chassidish shlepperei” style.
You paint a very rosy picture of Chassidic youth, when in truth most of them are ignoramuses in anything worldly, and cannot later in life enter any skilled profession, thereby restricting their sources of income considerably.
The reality is that many Chassidim are shockingly uneducated and have very poor English language skills. I deal with Chassidim in business regularly so this is a first hand impression. No amount of apologetics on your part can alter that reality. You might be tempted to accuse me of being one of “[t]hese ‘commenters’ [who] make it appear as if EVERYONE in this community is lacking an education, and subsequently goes around illiterate, and with no intelligent thoughts in their heads.” For the record, I do not believe its everyone. It is the however case for vast majority of Chassidim and that’s unfortunate.
As an aside, the above quote of yours is an example of how you routinely mischaracterize the viewpoints of critics in order to discount these views.
"Our children learn a tremendous amount and are certainly taught a LOT! "
"you would have to agree that the residents in these parts, are for the most part, well learnt. "
Oib di nar volt nisht mien geven, volt ich oich gelacht.
Shaitel, hate to break this to you, but in the area of JEWISH EDUCATION, Bais Rachel lags way behind too.
The only area Satmara girls are ahead at, is where to shop and find "metzies" on sale.
--- I am simply saying that the claim that "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." can just as often be wrong - as it can be right. ---
No, as a matter of logic, a statement like that can be always right or always wrong. It cannot sometimes be right and sometimes be wrong. This is because there only needs to sometimes be consequences for the statement to be true. Let me give you an example of this.
If I say “it is snowing outside,” this statement is true when it is snowing and false when it is not snowing. If I say “it sometimes snows,” this statement would be just as true whether it is snowing right now or not.
If you forgot the logic you learned in high school, you can refresh at the site linked to below. (Do they teach high school math in Chassish girls’ schools? I am assuming Chassidish girls typically do not get regents diplomas, but correct me if I am wrong.) Or maybe you didn’t pay attention, because you think the only reason people need to know math is to know “how to do their own calculation as to how much interest will accumulate on their mortgages, savings accounts and outstanding credit card bills.”
http://library.thinkquest.org/3531/logic.html
"As an aside, the above quote of yours is an example of how you routinely mischaracterize the viewpoints of critics in order to discount these views"
This is exactly what you do.
And your recent post added zero to the discussion about a community that willfully hinders the grwoth and opputunities of the young people by providing a gehetto education.
No I will countinue to complain because this problem has ruined the lives of many people.
VBP - which part of the statement "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." - wasn't stating that the consequences are 'only' a possibility. The statement was absolute - and as such it can sometimes be right and sometimes wrong.
Perhaps it isn't deduction skills that you need to acquire. Simply learning how to read might do the trick.
frummer - once again laziness seems to be at the root of the problem. Why can't those that are so desperate for an education just DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT other than complain?
Yes, I do believe one can learn so much more - in spite of learning all day. And as I have said time and again, it's up to the parents to provide that education. If parents want to - they can.
As for your claim that 'most' have little secular subjects and are thereby subsequently hindered financially - statistically I'd bet you are wrong. There are many opportunities for people to earn an income that does not require further education, and so many in our community found their niche - and excelled at it! I'd definitely say that statistically there are more that are doing ok financially than those that are struggling.
WHY DON'T YOU UNHAPPY people JUST PICK UP AND LEAVE! Believe U me, you will survive. Why remain in a black & white world when you can celebrate live in full color! It obviously works for many but not for YOU
"There are many opportunities for people to earn an income that does not require further education, and so many in our community found their niche - and excelled at it!"
Exactly!
And why don't you name those "opportunities" called, welfare, food stamps, medicaid,and section 8.
vfb - I was going to follow my statement where I referenced the necessity of learning math, with the fact that being that I despise the subject I was simply not in the mood of coming up with any other practical or beneficial aspects of it.
I do quite well with the English language, science, geography, history, civics and yes, even logic. But I hate math. I find the concept that 1 + 1 will always have to equal 2 - - absolutely stifling! Where's the individuality in that? That would mean that my answers are identical to everyone else's answers! The thought of that freaks me out. In a community where it is unusual to stand out and be different - I loathed those times where I didn’t' have the opportunity to so obviously me to be me.
None of that negates my understanding for the necessity for, nor my ability to do advanced math. It simply conveyed my extreme dislike.
Being a Satmar Willi graduate myself, I have to admit that the girls there DO get a secular education, at least more than enough to guide them through the rest of their lives raising children in Williamsburg, which is what most end up doing. I don't think regents and diplomas are necessary, especially if MOST girls here do not pursue a career where such a type of education is needed.
Religious studies could be a bit better, but again, the girls here do not need to graduate from Seminary in order to get a teaching position or anything else.
The boys is an entirely different story. Yes, they do need to be educated a bit better in their English language skills, because the majority of our men go out in the working world, and need these skills. So, as sheitel says, let the mothers teach them????.... Not the best solution.
"Just because education is a priority to you, doesn't mean it has to be for everyone else."
This is partially true. Although others may feel education is not important, they maybe wrong.
For example, read the book "the unchosen". And visit footstepsorg.org.
Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education.
And it may work out fine to raise children w/o an education but often it does not."
That was my quote in its entirety. But Sheital is selective and only quotes part in order to take it out of context
"Perhaps it isn't deduction skills that you need to acquire. Simply learning how to read might do the trick."
Maybe you sheital should take yor own advice and read my post.
There are consequences when this is done for everyone because some people will get hurt (some won't).
Nice try though keep on living in your fantasies.
Chanie - or have you considered real estate, the food industry, printing industry, designing typesetting, and yes -rebbeim in cheider or even working with Judaica? What about the many businesses out there with heimish and successful sales people, buyers, and even business owners? And there is loads more!.
And in fact many in our community have also gotten degrees in advanced computing, accounting and some even in nursing!
So for a moment - just a moment, take off those black lensed glasses and see that the sun is shining! It's glorious out there.
Vuz hut man fin education? Satmar girls marry at 18 have kids and that is life nothing more...you do not need an education to be sleep deprived because of baby crying all night or changing diapers. isnt it this what most Satmar girls do?
Modern - May I recommend that when writing ONE thought you keep it in ONE paragraph. The statement was made to stand in and of itself. All I pointed out was the fact that it couldn't.
most rebbeim in cheider are child molestors.. heimish business men do more then work in the office.
Modern Chassidish I agree with everything you wrote..
Esti, "most" are child molesters?? and yungeliet do more than work? That makes up a very, very small percentage of the community. Be realistic.
Esti- HU??
Sheitel:
--- which part of the statement "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." - wasn't stating that the consequences are 'only' a possibility. The statement was absolute ---
I do not believe anyone who reads the statement will interpret it to mean that in all situations all people suffer consequences of the lack of education prevalent among Chassidim. I note that the author of the statement seemed to agree that my interpretation was correct.
vfb - Given the fact that 'logically' I was correct, I don't see why you keep on going back to a statement that was not about the logistics - but rather about the situation.
Many manage fine in spite of their minimal education. As a matter of fact - most do. And I still agree wholeheartedly that a more solid secular education is nonetheless necessary.
Why do you find it so difficult to agree with what I said?
Interesting post, Sheitel. I would like to point out that the education system today is very different than what it was like 20 years ago. So people who criticize the system are those who are basing their opinions on the system 20 years ago.
True, todays boys do not learn history or science..but they learn the basics and they learn it pretty well. Teachers today are also not what they used to be.
The only issue I have with my kids yeshiva, is that they dont have any sports..not even half an hour a day. I think my kids would benefit greatly from that.
Miri my son was molested by one of the best rebbiem in chieder. is it clear now? Do you know how much money I spend on therapy? because of sick people around
If I can only worry about 4th grade education in Williamsburg then life would be less stressful
Miri, I'm sorry you're suffering, and yes, there ARE such instances. But 'most'??? That's a bit hard to believe. And not true at all. Again, a very small percentage.
sorry, post was addressed to Esti.
Esti:
It's terrible when things like this happen.
You can count yourself lucky that you found out and that your child is receiving treatment. In time he will be healed.
A while back I posted the story of what can happen if there is no treatment or treatment of the wrong sort. Read the story of the untreated abused persons and, not that I wish to demean your suffering in any way, consider yourself luckier than he.
Read it here.
"Modern - May I recommend that when writing ONE thought you keep it in ONE paragraph. The statement was made to stand in and of itself. All I pointed out was the fact that it couldn't."
If I write in one paragraphs will that make it more of a challenge to twist my words? I think anyone who read what I wrote got it including you.
Mod - The statement was inaccurate. That's all it boils down to.
And since none of this is the actual issue, how about going back to the initial topic. Education - and how the lack of a secular one does not necessarily hinder one later on in life.
"Our children learn a tremendous amount and are certainly taught a LOT"
now with this statement you try to make it out to be enough education but then it changes................
"I believe they deserve to know the basics of science. Basic history of around the world – as well as that of our own country. And yes, it is indeed about time our boys know a bit more about geography." ?????
and with this statement you clearly show that you are indeed not the typical willi girl but raised in a oifgeklerte home and therby a misfit..........
"Raising moral and God-fearing Chasidim is ours."
not exactly sure what you mean by that ? does satmar succeed when it comes to moral?mentchlichkeit? or is the whole world "ingantzen mashigeh"?
why does satmar have the name of being " a satmara chaye"(maybe they are all jealous of the succsesfull satmara education?)
the fact remains as you said it so many times that there IS an oppurtunity to be whatever you want to be ..but you keep forgeting to point out that there might [and lets be honest most of the time]come with great consequeces
and alot of ppl you call lazy are actually sitting in kolel b/c their wives wont let them go to work - what will "hentche" "bracha" "leitchu" say about that
well we CAN but we CANT
"heiche timtze"
now before you jump on me
of caurse YOU are not a misfit cause your mom burnt the book but ppl who do the thinks you ALLOWES them to do they are [in the eyes of willi ]a misfit
Captain - Exactly. When our parents were in school, the hanhala and parent body were made up mostly of immigrants. As the years go on, and those groups become predominantly American-born, it's automatic that there will be stronger emphasis on English studies.
BTW though, there are chassidishe yeshivas that do teach history, but not science. They've tried to find suitable books, but with no luck. They have enough work crossing off 'newspaper' and 'library' in math books, imagine how much work a science book would give them!
About the sports thing you mentioned, that really irks me. The boys would benefit so much from having some sort of established sports. If the yeshiva doesn't like the idea of goyishe sports like baseball, let them play a game of machanayim for goodness sakes!! They'd be showing the children the importance of 'v'nishmartem m'od l'nafshosaichem'. But sadly, that's just one mitzvah that chassidim wrote off as unimportant a long time ago. I have a feeling though that as with other things (like hitting) it's only a matter of time before they'll have no choice but to change with the times and sports will be introduced into the curriculum.
Miri:
--- a very small percentage. ---
I doubt its most, as Esti said, but the number of cases of sexual abuse in yeshivas is significant. I think that a community that is not capable of being self critical denies it, because they cannot deal with the reality, that there are problems in the community.
Of course there is no reason for you to believe me, as I just an anonymous blogger. However, Dr. Susan Schulman, a pediatrician in Boro Park has stated that sexual abuse in Yeshivas is common. Given that she’s seen thousands of Chassidic and ultra-orthodox children over the course of her career, she is in position to know.
baga - Rest assured that I won't attack you, and certainly not 'jump on you'. Had I felt that there was a point there somewhere that might somehow invalidate anything I had said - then I might have. But other than calling me a 'misfit' AGAIN - if there was anything there that can be viewed as a point - I missed it.
vfb - Latest statistics have had it that the percentage of children in our community that have been molested is practically identical to the general percentage worldwide. That is not a justification - as I find it appalling that an act so atrocious occurs among G-d fearing Jews, but to say that is more frequent is false.
And for those that are going to ask me for the statistics - go ahead and find it. I will be grateful! As for me? No patience. Sorry.
The boy’s schools/Chiedurim are definitely lacking a sufficient secular education, but I have yet to see Yingerleit not being successful as a result of that. While I don’t see Chasidisher heart surgeons or noble prize winners, I do see a vast amount of Chasidisher Yingeliet being highly successful. I often wonder about that. How can it be? The answer I came up is that a boy who finishes Yeshiva after learning Gemureh and Mefurshim, Reshonim and Achronim, will accumulate a tremendous amount of critical thinking skills. Critical thinking is all what takes to be successful in life.
again you try so hard to get away from the point
mollestation is as you say not a big issue here but what about all the other issues in the satmara moisdes hitting another child [atleast in my days and its not that long ago] was not the worst thing to do as long of caurse your parents have alot of money and di bist a chusid fin reb aron reb zalmen
the fact remains that satmar didnt succeed with this kinda EDUCATION every other boy that comes out from there is a shlager or was a shlager how manny ppl were kicked out from the shulls with shlagerien and no rav to go to that was the satmara willi way of doing thinks then [with klosenbrg] and now
and the deniel goes on
as handsome as i am you might jump on me
but a mazel you wont so i dont have to worry then
Bagabund, she very well might. She made out with my naighbor a whila back, and he is not that hot.
Oh and how do I know that? Same place she knows about the "Latest statistics have had it that the percentage of children in our community that have been molested is practically identical to the general percentage worldwide"....
I wish this could be a phone conversation I have so much to say about this topic, but being one of the successful well educated (and happy for that matter) guys from will my English and grammar sucksssss lol so I don’t bother.
Enjoy all, nice blog
P.S I’m sure there is a lot of people like me out there who can’t raise their voice because of the same problem (there good education)
Mod - The statement was inaccurate. That's all it boils down to.
And since none of this is the actual issue, how about going back to the initial topic. Education - and how the lack of a secular one does not necessarily hinder one later on in life."
Ok had you read what I wrote you would have understood that I was saying that NOT all will be hurt but some will. Definately some.
Let me ask you a question: If I told you that 5% of the time you drive your car it will explode from a malfunction. Would you say you are driving a safe car?
OK I will answer the question. No. 5% is too risky. Does this mean the car won't work ever? No. 95% of the time its fine.
This is analagous to the current of education. If the system (educational which is the moshel of car) fails miserabely 5% of the time, then that's a catastrophic problem. We can then say with certanty that some (a signifigant #) will be hurt in a malfunctioning system that is flawed. Living in Willi is like driving a beat up car. It might work sometimes but sometimes it won't.
Bottom Line: a 4th grade education on the collective level will be problamatic to a signifigant portion of the given society and therefore those who institute such a system and encourage it (you sheital) are playing a role in the destruction of people's lives. How can I dare support Satmar knowing that they do this horrific thing and as others pointed out protect perverts and not children? Tell me Sheital your answer does matter to me as you are the blogsphere's spokeswomen for Willi.
Sheitel:
--- Latest statistics have had it that the percentage of children in our community that have been molested is practically identical to the general percentage worldwide. … [T]o say that is more frequent is false. ---
I doubt that the statistics you cite exist. But even if they do, it does not address what I said at all.
I never stated that sexual abuse is more frequent among Chassidim than the outside world. When I said that number of cases of sexual abuse is significant, it was not in comparison to the rest of the world, but in comparison to public perceptions of what they are.
Your need to compare the rate of sexual abuse among Chassidim to the outside world reflects that your primary concern is the public relations aspect of this problem, not the suffering of the victims. If sexual abuse is seen as a public relations problem, there are two ways to deal with it, reduce the incidence of sexual abuse, or hide the incidence of sexual abuse. Unfortunately, on occasion that latter method is used.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I say, it's important to be fully up to date on the issues before making blatant statements about positions of authority and those who take the lead in setting examples for our children
Realistically, whether or not a person receives a secular education, it is the capabilities and experience of the individual, that truly influence his success in life
I totally agree with anonymous.
To all of the wonderful anonymouses - please do me a personal favor: choose a name- and stick with it.
Any name you decide to go with will no doubt be a pseudonym, and as such will still ensure the anonymity you so desire.
sheitel said...
Thirty - I follow your logic, but respectfully disagree that I have 'overstepped' any lines. It would be more accurate to say that when I noticed the broken lines along the road I slipped over to 'get ahead', but I always got back into my own lane before it turned into an actual [traffic] violation.
Sheitel,............. You are full of bull, and you know that yourself.
They last two post are plagiarized. SonicWALL doesn’t allow me access, but I trust google… Here is the link. I
http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/1269
Not necessarily the last two, but the last two lengthy posts.
I liked this idea of chassidishe sports. Wouldn’t it be fun to watch the finals of CLB (Chassidic League Baseball) in which Lubavitch yakes the crown for the 10th consecutive year and Satmar once again, came in second? I think I have a post in the making….
In response to Modern's query regarding how I can support a system that, according to Mod, 'does this horrific thing' which he equated with a scenario which would indeed be truly catastrophic.
My answer, and I'll try to keep it short - is that I don't believe the results are nearly as tragic as you attempted to describe them. I believe, (and I'll go along with your analogy) that the 5% that fail don’t ‘explode’ but rather have something akin to a flat tire- or better yet, they just have a difficult time starting the engine.
And as I've said: 'Boosts' are available.
vfb - In regard to your assumptions that in regard to sexual abuse my primary concern would be 'covering up' so that to the outside we ‘appear’ flawless - nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, am a big proponent of publicizing who the sex offenders are - even at the risk of such publicity hurting their children. I strongly am of the opinion that children of such a father are at risk - and therefore having their father 'outed' would indeed be in their best interest. I was appalled at the many times these incidences used to be covered up. But BARUCH HASHEM- we as a community have grown in this respect (as has the rest of the world), and are dealing with these cases more openly and accurately.
The only reason I mentioned the fact that 'statistically' we are no better - no worse - than the rest of 'em, is because of the attempts by some to portray the situation to be worse than it is. With the situation as bad as it is - why make it seem like it's worse?
I believe that as a community that is supposed to answer to a Higher Authority - the fact that the numbers even come into a similar range is indeed horrifying, and once again my recommendation stays the same - only this time I don't just suggest, but rather beseech you all: DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
"AND IF YOU ARE NOT A SHADCHAN, DON"T ACT AS ONE !!!!"
maybe try frumster.com??
"I believe, (and I'll go along with your analogy) that the 5% that fail don’t ‘explode’ but rather have something akin to a flat tire- or better yet, they just have a difficult time starting the engine.
And as I've said: 'Boosts' are available. "
Thanks for responding to my points.
One question: what "boosts" are you refering to?? Is it job networking?? Where does one fix the "flat tires"??
And since this is a post about the book "the unchosen" what were you thinking about when you read the chapter the charachter in the book who could not find work outside of tutoring?? Was he a "flat tire example" or an "explosion" (and if he was an explosion how common is that??)
Modern - by 'boosts' I was referring to the many programs that are available for those interested in computer networking, programming, medical billing, and even the basics of real estate investing, to name a few.
"Yossi" in Unchosen was not a 'flat tire' nor an 'explosion' - but simply too lazy to apply himself. If he were to seriously care about a career as opposed to simply 'living it up' then he wouldn't have blown his chances at the opportunity the 'wonderful' program Footsteps had provided for him. If you recall, Footsteps had started their GED program and assigned Yossi with a counselor that was going to guide him to fruition. At that point though, Yossi had finally gotten hold of a girl who was willing to give him sex on a more regular basis. It wasn't as if this relationship was even remotely likely to last for the long haul - but as anyone reading about Yossi’s life would surmise, he isn't one to look at the future. Just the here and now.
Yossi's fluency with the English language seems to have been sufficient for Hella to have understood him. That being the case I beleive that had he applied himself he could have been helped with any of the 'boosts' available. As with all else, he chose what appeared to him as the easy way out.
Most people tend to choose their online moniker to describe themselves. Many blogger names do indeed aptly describe the ‘Title holder’ – yet I have yet to come across a name that says it as succinctly as Mistake. Congrats Mistake, although I believe that you perceive the interpretation of your name to be erroneous. Ironic.
While you claim to be privy to the precise intents of the Satmar Rebbe’s master plan, and that the reason for the minimal education is to indeed hinder us from all that is forbidden, you summarize it with allocating a neat spot for the Jewish woman – in front of the kitchen sink. If that was indeed the Rebbe’s intent, then why the education to begin with? In addition, consider that the Satmar Rebbe was a strong supporter of the yingeleit going out to work. He felt that kollel should be reserved for those who sincerely intended to learn, not as a cop-out from real life – but as a goal in and of itself.
I believe that the reason we teach our boys such a minimal secular education is only because it was felt to have been ‘bittul Torah’ to allocate more time to it. And precisely for that reason the Rebbe allowed us girls to have an extensive secular education – because he didn’t want us too well versed in Torah.
I am not suggesting advanced secular studies so that internet blogging becomes a pastime. I am suggesting that the basics of a secular education be taught for if or when the need arises.
Sheital:
If yossi serves as a support for your views then why do you dislike the book maybe you would agree then that the book was balanced??? (
Bagabund you seem to to believe that the world consists in black and white. It doesn't.
Modern - I do believe that the Yossi characterization does indeed support some of what I claim, that many that failed - did so due to personal choice. The reason I don't agree with the book, is because it attempted to portray a guy like Yossi as an intelligent 'seeker', and subsequently 'seekers' as the typical rebels.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Bagabund - my previous response WAS in response to your previous posts. All five of them. I prefer brevity to babbling, and concise remarks to continuous comments. But that is just me.
None of what you said rang true, and as such I didn't find the need to respond. But if you wish - I'll say it again. I'M NO OUTCAST. I AM NO MISFIT. I was raised in a Satmar home, and intend on offering my children the same golden opportunity to bee able to live life fully al pi Torah.
For all those who have these preconceived notions about how Satmar women are lacking in the brains department - perhaps the problem lies within your inability to perceive and judge your fellow human equally.
"as an intelligent 'seeker', and subsequently 'seekers' as the typical rebels. "
It seems to me that none of these were seekers of the kind you describe. Rather, they were experimentors. In any event, you pointed out that yossi was lazy not exactly the profile of what you latter coined "Intelligent seeker".
Care to clue us in on the stira (gemarah loshen for contradiction).
Modern - I said that Hella was attempting to portray Yossi as an intellectual seeker, while in reality, although he may have been intelligent he was actually rather a seeker of adventure. And as such he was too lazy to actually pursue any intellectual interests.
Does that 'farentfer' any perceived contradictions?
Mistake - Oddly enough, BEFORE the explanation I was tempted to say 'Learn from your parents' mistake - use birthcontrol.' In light of the true facts I don't want to offend. What is most important to keep in mind is that our life is ours. Our parents mistakes need not destine who and what we are in our own lives.
As for my own pseudonym - it was simply a female content version - of the male discontent Shtreimel. There is no coverup. There is no double life.
I will have be meayin (delve into gemarah term for review) into the chapters. I did not think (upon my inital read) that she portrayed these people as intelligent seekers who wanted answers to philosophical or theological questions. Rather, as people who were attempting to make sense of their situation. In other words, Yossi was hurt and he was looking everywhere and in anything to fix his problems. He took advice from the barber c'mon not exactly a portral of an intelictual seeker.
Thanks for the support Chuck - but let's leave poor unhappy Bagabund alone.
From the bottom of heart I wish that he would find true contentment in life. If only he would realize that the treasure is buried in his own backyard.
Mistake - with all due respect, being as I don't know you and you don't know me - there truly is no way of determining which one of us has more 'inside' perspectives and opinions. I am not the only one who is of the opinion that our boys need an education that will be solid enough to assist them in financial success. While Satmar always did pride itself in producing 'learners', anyone who is in the tiniest way realistic will admit that the heimishe working man too deserves a chance at succeeding.
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