Thursday, December 08, 2005

Education vs. Education

All these repetitious comments about how the community is ‘robbing’ us of an education – is, quite frankly, getting on my nerves. These ‘commenters’ make it appear as if EVERYONE in this community is lacking an education, and subsequently goes around illiterate, and with no intelligent thoughts in their heads. Would it be fair to say that of the Chinese? That if they aren't sufficiently well-versed in our culture and in our language, then they are 'uneducated'?

Our children learn a tremendous amount and are certainly taught a LOT! And while it is indeed true that a secular education could benefit many of them as well - MANY are coping amazingly well without it!

I am not condoning the fact that the focus on a secular education is so minimal - I am simply saying that the claim that "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." can just as often be wrong - as it can be right.

I do strongly believe that children deserve to have a – if basic, then at least well-rounded – secular education. I believe they ought to be taught a better English, with the grammar, spelling and writing abilities this subject requires. I believe they deserve to know math – at least enough for them to know how to do their own calculation as to how much interest will accumulate on their mortgages, savings accounts and outstanding credit card bills. I believe they deserve to know the basics of science. Basic history of around the world – as well as that of our own country. And yes, it is indeed about time our boys know a bit more about geography. If only the locations of the country they are discussing, and knowing which capital associates with which state. We girls are taught all this – and way more. Our mothers were too. So therefore we all have the ability and duty to educate our children with all that we deem necessary. To suggest that our schools lessen the amount of religious study in favor of secular studies is unrealistic. As it has been said – every community has its priorities. Raising moral and God-fearing Chasidim is ours.

Yet to claim that our community is depriving us of an education, thus preventing us from having success financially is the laziest excuse of no doubt, the laziest of guys.
While it would of course depend on what you consider 'education', for a moment let’s agree that education would be amassing knowledge in the context that might be beneficial to the individual later on in life. In light of what this community values, and the culture in which it rears its young – you would have to agree that the residents in these parts, are for the most part, well learnt.

In addition to the admittedly culturally biased and mostly religious education, I think it would be important to once again note that our community also has many wonderful advanced-learning programs for those that are so inclined. And if I may say so – These programs are far more beneficial to the recipient – than say… Footsteps?

I truly feel sorry for all of you that find that your education - or lack thereof, has hindered you in your adult life. All I can do is recommend once again that you do better for your kids.

And once and for all - quit the complaining.

91 Comments:

At December 08, 2005 4:45 AM, Blogger Frummer????? said...

You want the kids to be better educated in English, maths and a number of other subjects, yet you don’t want it done at the expense of “religious studies”.

Where then do you propose the time is found to give the extra teaching? The kids are already in school for extraordinary number of hours each day, so the school day can’t be extended.

There’s also the question of how much actual “quality time” is spent teaching Torah, and how much of it is simply wasted, “Chassidish shlepperei” style.

You paint a very rosy picture of Chassidic youth, when in truth most of them are ignoramuses in anything worldly, and cannot later in life enter any skilled profession, thereby restricting their sources of income considerably.

 
At December 08, 2005 8:53 AM, Anonymous VFB said...

The reality is that many Chassidim are shockingly uneducated and have very poor English language skills. I deal with Chassidim in business regularly so this is a first hand impression. No amount of apologetics on your part can alter that reality. You might be tempted to accuse me of being one of “[t]hese ‘commenters’ [who] make it appear as if EVERYONE in this community is lacking an education, and subsequently goes around illiterate, and with no intelligent thoughts in their heads.” For the record, I do not believe its everyone. It is the however case for vast majority of Chassidim and that’s unfortunate.

As an aside, the above quote of yours is an example of how you routinely mischaracterize the viewpoints of critics in order to discount these views.

 
At December 08, 2005 9:38 AM, Anonymous chanie said...

"Our children learn a tremendous amount and are certainly taught a LOT! "

"you would have to agree that the residents in these parts, are for the most part, well learnt. "

Oib di nar volt nisht mien geven, volt ich oich gelacht.

Shaitel, hate to break this to you, but in the area of JEWISH EDUCATION, Bais Rachel lags way behind too.
The only area Satmara girls are ahead at, is where to shop and find "metzies" on sale.

 
At December 08, 2005 9:40 AM, Anonymous VFB said...

--- I am simply saying that the claim that "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." can just as often be wrong - as it can be right. ---

No, as a matter of logic, a statement like that can be always right or always wrong. It cannot sometimes be right and sometimes be wrong. This is because there only needs to sometimes be consequences for the statement to be true. Let me give you an example of this.

If I say “it is snowing outside,” this statement is true when it is snowing and false when it is not snowing. If I say “it sometimes snows,” this statement would be just as true whether it is snowing right now or not.

If you forgot the logic you learned in high school, you can refresh at the site linked to below. (Do they teach high school math in Chassish girls’ schools? I am assuming Chassidish girls typically do not get regents diplomas, but correct me if I am wrong.) Or maybe you didn’t pay attention, because you think the only reason people need to know math is to know “how to do their own calculation as to how much interest will accumulate on their mortgages, savings accounts and outstanding credit card bills.”

http://library.thinkquest.org/3531/logic.html

 
At December 08, 2005 9:46 AM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

"As an aside, the above quote of yours is an example of how you routinely mischaracterize the viewpoints of critics in order to discount these views"

This is exactly what you do.
And your recent post added zero to the discussion about a community that willfully hinders the grwoth and opputunities of the young people by providing a gehetto education.

No I will countinue to complain because this problem has ruined the lives of many people.

 
At December 08, 2005 10:25 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

VBP - which part of the statement "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." - wasn't stating that the consequences are 'only' a possibility. The statement was absolute - and as such it can sometimes be right and sometimes wrong.

Perhaps it isn't deduction skills that you need to acquire. Simply learning how to read might do the trick.

 
At December 08, 2005 10:46 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

frummer - once again laziness seems to be at the root of the problem. Why can't those that are so desperate for an education just DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT other than complain?

Yes, I do believe one can learn so much more - in spite of learning all day. And as I have said time and again, it's up to the parents to provide that education. If parents want to - they can.

As for your claim that 'most' have little secular subjects and are thereby subsequently hindered financially - statistically I'd bet you are wrong. There are many opportunities for people to earn an income that does not require further education, and so many in our community found their niche - and excelled at it! I'd definitely say that statistically there are more that are doing ok financially than those that are struggling.

 
At December 08, 2005 10:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

WHY DON'T YOU UNHAPPY people JUST PICK UP AND LEAVE! Believe U me, you will survive. Why remain in a black & white world when you can celebrate live in full color! It obviously works for many but not for YOU

 
At December 08, 2005 10:52 AM, Anonymous chanie said...

"There are many opportunities for people to earn an income that does not require further education, and so many in our community found their niche - and excelled at it!"

Exactly!
And why don't you name those "opportunities" called, welfare, food stamps, medicaid,and section 8.

 
At December 08, 2005 10:59 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

vfb - I was going to follow my statement where I referenced the necessity of learning math, with the fact that being that I despise the subject I was simply not in the mood of coming up with any other practical or beneficial aspects of it.

I do quite well with the English language, science, geography, history, civics and yes, even logic. But I hate math. I find the concept that 1 + 1 will always have to equal 2 - - absolutely stifling! Where's the individuality in that? That would mean that my answers are identical to everyone else's answers! The thought of that freaks me out. In a community where it is unusual to stand out and be different - I loathed those times where I didn’t' have the opportunity to so obviously me to be me.

None of that negates my understanding for the necessity for, nor my ability to do advanced math. It simply conveyed my extreme dislike.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:01 AM, Anonymous Miri said...

Being a Satmar Willi graduate myself, I have to admit that the girls there DO get a secular education, at least more than enough to guide them through the rest of their lives raising children in Williamsburg, which is what most end up doing. I don't think regents and diplomas are necessary, especially if MOST girls here do not pursue a career where such a type of education is needed.

Religious studies could be a bit better, but again, the girls here do not need to graduate from Seminary in order to get a teaching position or anything else.

The boys is an entirely different story. Yes, they do need to be educated a bit better in their English language skills, because the majority of our men go out in the working world, and need these skills. So, as sheitel says, let the mothers teach them????.... Not the best solution.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:05 AM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

"Just because education is a priority to you, doesn't mean it has to be for everyone else."

This is partially true. Although others may feel education is not important, they maybe wrong.
For example, read the book "the unchosen". And visit footstepsorg.org.

Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education.

And it may work out fine to raise children w/o an education but often it does not."

That was my quote in its entirety. But Sheital is selective and only quotes part in order to take it out of context

"Perhaps it isn't deduction skills that you need to acquire. Simply learning how to read might do the trick."

Maybe you sheital should take yor own advice and read my post.
There are consequences when this is done for everyone because some people will get hurt (some won't).

Nice try though keep on living in your fantasies.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:07 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Chanie - or have you considered real estate, the food industry, printing industry, designing typesetting, and yes -rebbeim in cheider or even working with Judaica? What about the many businesses out there with heimish and successful sales people, buyers, and even business owners? And there is loads more!.

And in fact many in our community have also gotten degrees in advanced computing, accounting and some even in nursing!

So for a moment - just a moment, take off those black lensed glasses and see that the sun is shining! It's glorious out there.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:08 AM, Anonymous Esti said...

Vuz hut man fin education? Satmar girls marry at 18 have kids and that is life nothing more...you do not need an education to be sleep deprived because of baby crying all night or changing diapers. isnt it this what most Satmar girls do?

 
At December 08, 2005 11:11 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Modern - May I recommend that when writing ONE thought you keep it in ONE paragraph. The statement was made to stand in and of itself. All I pointed out was the fact that it couldn't.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:12 AM, Anonymous Esti said...

most rebbeim in cheider are child molestors.. heimish business men do more then work in the office.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:14 AM, Anonymous esti said...

Modern Chassidish I agree with everything you wrote..

 
At December 08, 2005 11:21 AM, Anonymous Miri said...

Esti, "most" are child molesters?? and yungeliet do more than work? That makes up a very, very small percentage of the community. Be realistic.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:28 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Esti- HU??

 
At December 08, 2005 11:29 AM, Anonymous VFB said...

Sheitel:

--- which part of the statement "Clearly, there are consequences for the preferences of having a 4th grade education." - wasn't stating that the consequences are 'only' a possibility. The statement was absolute ---

I do not believe anyone who reads the statement will interpret it to mean that in all situations all people suffer consequences of the lack of education prevalent among Chassidim. I note that the author of the statement seemed to agree that my interpretation was correct.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:36 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

vfb - Given the fact that 'logically' I was correct, I don't see why you keep on going back to a statement that was not about the logistics - but rather about the situation.

Many manage fine in spite of their minimal education. As a matter of fact - most do. And I still agree wholeheartedly that a more solid secular education is nonetheless necessary.

Why do you find it so difficult to agree with what I said?

 
At December 08, 2005 11:40 AM, Blogger Captain said...

Interesting post, Sheitel. I would like to point out that the education system today is very different than what it was like 20 years ago. So people who criticize the system are those who are basing their opinions on the system 20 years ago.
True, todays boys do not learn history or science..but they learn the basics and they learn it pretty well. Teachers today are also not what they used to be.
The only issue I have with my kids yeshiva, is that they dont have any sports..not even half an hour a day. I think my kids would benefit greatly from that.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:48 AM, Anonymous Esti said...

Miri my son was molested by one of the best rebbiem in chieder. is it clear now? Do you know how much money I spend on therapy? because of sick people around

 
At December 08, 2005 11:49 AM, Anonymous Esti said...

If I can only worry about 4th grade education in Williamsburg then life would be less stressful

 
At December 08, 2005 11:54 AM, Anonymous Miri said...

Miri, I'm sorry you're suffering, and yes, there ARE such instances. But 'most'??? That's a bit hard to believe. And not true at all. Again, a very small percentage.

 
At December 08, 2005 11:54 AM, Anonymous Miri said...

sorry, post was addressed to Esti.

 
At December 08, 2005 12:40 PM, Blogger Frummer????? said...

Esti:

It's terrible when things like this happen.

You can count yourself lucky that you found out and that your child is receiving treatment. In time he will be healed.

A while back I posted the story of what can happen if there is no treatment or treatment of the wrong sort. Read the story of the untreated abused persons and, not that I wish to demean your suffering in any way, consider yourself luckier than he.

Read it here.

 
At December 08, 2005 1:02 PM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

"Modern - May I recommend that when writing ONE thought you keep it in ONE paragraph. The statement was made to stand in and of itself. All I pointed out was the fact that it couldn't."

If I write in one paragraphs will that make it more of a challenge to twist my words? I think anyone who read what I wrote got it including you.

 
At December 08, 2005 1:06 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Mod - The statement was inaccurate. That's all it boils down to.

And since none of this is the actual issue, how about going back to the initial topic. Education - and how the lack of a secular one does not necessarily hinder one later on in life.

 
At December 08, 2005 1:11 PM, Anonymous bagabund said...

"Our children learn a tremendous amount and are certainly taught a LOT"
now with this statement you try to make it out to be enough education but then it changes................
"I believe they deserve to know the basics of science. Basic history of around the world – as well as that of our own country. And yes, it is indeed about time our boys know a bit more about geography." ?????
and with this statement you clearly show that you are indeed not the typical willi girl but raised in a oifgeklerte home and therby a misfit..........
"Raising moral and God-fearing Chasidim is ours."
not exactly sure what you mean by that ? does satmar succeed when it comes to moral?mentchlichkeit? or is the whole world "ingantzen mashigeh"?
why does satmar have the name of being " a satmara chaye"(maybe they are all jealous of the succsesfull satmara education?)
the fact remains as you said it so many times that there IS an oppurtunity to be whatever you want to be ..but you keep forgeting to point out that there might [and lets be honest most of the time]come with great consequeces
and alot of ppl you call lazy are actually sitting in kolel b/c their wives wont let them go to work - what will "hentche" "bracha" "leitchu" say about that
well we CAN but we CANT
"heiche timtze"

 
At December 08, 2005 1:15 PM, Anonymous bagabund said...

now before you jump on me
of caurse YOU are not a misfit cause your mom burnt the book but ppl who do the thinks you ALLOWES them to do they are [in the eyes of willi ]a misfit

 
At December 08, 2005 1:21 PM, Blogger Genendy said...

Captain - Exactly. When our parents were in school, the hanhala and parent body were made up mostly of immigrants. As the years go on, and those groups become predominantly American-born, it's automatic that there will be stronger emphasis on English studies.

BTW though, there are chassidishe yeshivas that do teach history, but not science. They've tried to find suitable books, but with no luck. They have enough work crossing off 'newspaper' and 'library' in math books, imagine how much work a science book would give them!

About the sports thing you mentioned, that really irks me. The boys would benefit so much from having some sort of established sports. If the yeshiva doesn't like the idea of goyishe sports like baseball, let them play a game of machanayim for goodness sakes!! They'd be showing the children the importance of 'v'nishmartem m'od l'nafshosaichem'. But sadly, that's just one mitzvah that chassidim wrote off as unimportant a long time ago. I have a feeling though that as with other things (like hitting) it's only a matter of time before they'll have no choice but to change with the times and sports will be introduced into the curriculum.

 
At December 08, 2005 1:35 PM, Anonymous VFB said...

Miri:

--- a very small percentage. ---

I doubt its most, as Esti said, but the number of cases of sexual abuse in yeshivas is significant. I think that a community that is not capable of being self critical denies it, because they cannot deal with the reality, that there are problems in the community.

Of course there is no reason for you to believe me, as I just an anonymous blogger. However, Dr. Susan Schulman, a pediatrician in Boro Park has stated that sexual abuse in Yeshivas is common. Given that she’s seen thousands of Chassidic and ultra-orthodox children over the course of her career, she is in position to know.

 
At December 08, 2005 1:36 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

baga - Rest assured that I won't attack you, and certainly not 'jump on you'. Had I felt that there was a point there somewhere that might somehow invalidate anything I had said - then I might have. But other than calling me a 'misfit' AGAIN - if there was anything there that can be viewed as a point - I missed it.

 
At December 08, 2005 1:44 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

vfb - Latest statistics have had it that the percentage of children in our community that have been molested is practically identical to the general percentage worldwide. That is not a justification - as I find it appalling that an act so atrocious occurs among G-d fearing Jews, but to say that is more frequent is false.

And for those that are going to ask me for the statistics - go ahead and find it. I will be grateful! As for me? No patience. Sorry.

 
At December 08, 2005 2:05 PM, Blogger Also A Chussid said...

The boy’s schools/Chiedurim are definitely lacking a sufficient secular education, but I have yet to see Yingerleit not being successful as a result of that. While I don’t see Chasidisher heart surgeons or noble prize winners, I do see a vast amount of Chasidisher Yingeliet being highly successful. I often wonder about that. How can it be? The answer I came up is that a boy who finishes Yeshiva after learning Gemureh and Mefurshim, Reshonim and Achronim, will accumulate a tremendous amount of critical thinking skills. Critical thinking is all what takes to be successful in life.

 
At December 08, 2005 2:05 PM, Anonymous bagabund said...

again you try so hard to get away from the point
mollestation is as you say not a big issue here but what about all the other issues in the satmara moisdes hitting another child [atleast in my days and its not that long ago] was not the worst thing to do as long of caurse your parents have alot of money and di bist a chusid fin reb aron reb zalmen
the fact remains that satmar didnt succeed with this kinda EDUCATION every other boy that comes out from there is a shlager or was a shlager how manny ppl were kicked out from the shulls with shlagerien and no rav to go to that was the satmara willi way of doing thinks then [with klosenbrg] and now
and the deniel goes on

 
At December 08, 2005 2:08 PM, Anonymous bagabund said...

as handsome as i am you might jump on me
but a mazel you wont so i dont have to worry then

 
At December 08, 2005 2:23 PM, Anonymous chanie said...

Bagabund, she very well might. She made out with my naighbor a whila back, and he is not that hot.

Oh and how do I know that? Same place she knows about the "Latest statistics have had it that the percentage of children in our community that have been molested is practically identical to the general percentage worldwide"....

 
At December 08, 2005 2:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wish this could be a phone conversation I have so much to say about this topic, but being one of the successful well educated (and happy for that matter) guys from will my English and grammar sucksssss lol so I don’t bother.

Enjoy all, nice blog

P.S I’m sure there is a lot of people like me out there who can’t raise their voice because of the same problem (there good education)

 
At December 08, 2005 2:48 PM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

Mod - The statement was inaccurate. That's all it boils down to.

And since none of this is the actual issue, how about going back to the initial topic. Education - and how the lack of a secular one does not necessarily hinder one later on in life."

Ok had you read what I wrote you would have understood that I was saying that NOT all will be hurt but some will. Definately some.

Let me ask you a question: If I told you that 5% of the time you drive your car it will explode from a malfunction. Would you say you are driving a safe car?

OK I will answer the question. No. 5% is too risky. Does this mean the car won't work ever? No. 95% of the time its fine.
This is analagous to the current of education. If the system (educational which is the moshel of car) fails miserabely 5% of the time, then that's a catastrophic problem. We can then say with certanty that some (a signifigant #) will be hurt in a malfunctioning system that is flawed. Living in Willi is like driving a beat up car. It might work sometimes but sometimes it won't.

Bottom Line: a 4th grade education on the collective level will be problamatic to a signifigant portion of the given society and therefore those who institute such a system and encourage it (you sheital) are playing a role in the destruction of people's lives. How can I dare support Satmar knowing that they do this horrific thing and as others pointed out protect perverts and not children? Tell me Sheital your answer does matter to me as you are the blogsphere's spokeswomen for Willi.

 
At December 08, 2005 2:54 PM, Anonymous vfb said...

Sheitel:

--- Latest statistics have had it that the percentage of children in our community that have been molested is practically identical to the general percentage worldwide. … [T]o say that is more frequent is false. ---

I doubt that the statistics you cite exist. But even if they do, it does not address what I said at all.

I never stated that sexual abuse is more frequent among Chassidim than the outside world. When I said that number of cases of sexual abuse is significant, it was not in comparison to the rest of the world, but in comparison to public perceptions of what they are.

Your need to compare the rate of sexual abuse among Chassidim to the outside world reflects that your primary concern is the public relations aspect of this problem, not the suffering of the victims. If sexual abuse is seen as a public relations problem, there are two ways to deal with it, reduce the incidence of sexual abuse, or hide the incidence of sexual abuse. Unfortunately, on occasion that latter method is used.

 
At December 08, 2005 3:05 PM, Anonymous tshuvah tefilah tzedaka said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At December 08, 2005 3:11 PM, Anonymous tshuva tefilah tzedaka said...

Dear Rabbi,
Many Jews heap praises on America as being "A country where Jews can live free from daily fear of persecution. A country where the constitution protects us with freedom of speech, press and religion. The safest country, except for Israel, for Jews to reside in. Without this country most of us would not be alive today." My response is, "What if the United States of America was an evil empire by Jewish standards? What if the USA was comparable to Rome in the days of our forefathers? What if American foreign policy would cause the destruction of Israel, or the metamorphosis of Israel from a Jewish State into a Democratic Multi-ethnic Entity? What if American culture caused the loss of more than 51% of America's Jews every generation? Would it then be permissible for Jews to lavish such praise on a country that does us such devastating harm, just because it lets us worship our religion, and make a few bucks?" What is your opinion?
Dear pupil
Comparing the United States to ancient Rome seems a bit of a stretch of the imagination. Rome was an extremely evil empire that tortured our Rabbis to death, murdered, plundered, destroyed our people, country and our Temple and sent us into the exile we are still in until today.
Regarding assimilation, is the United States to blame? While it is true that many sectors of the Jewish population are sadly assimilating in America, others are thriving. For example, Torah institutions, Yeshivot, Jewish day schools and centers for outreach and Torah study have burgeoned in the U.S. over the last 50 years. So blaming the U.S. for those who assimilate is simply an attempt to shift the burden of guilt.
But to answer your question: Yes, you are allowed to praise even an evil country for its good acts. As an extreme example, Rabbi Yehuda B'rabbi Ilai in the Talmud (Shabbat 33b) praised the Romans for all their beneficial deeds, such as building roads, bridges, sanitation facilities, and markets, even though ancient Rome was an extremely evil empire. If this is so regarding a vicious, antagonistic government such as Rome, all the more so one should appreciate and praise a country like America for its liberties and opportunities, while resisting its tendency toward assimilation and permissiveness.

 
At December 08, 2005 4:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I say, it's important to be fully up to date on the issues before making blatant statements about positions of authority and those who take the lead in setting examples for our children

 
At December 08, 2005 4:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Realistically, whether or not a person receives a secular education, it is the capabilities and experience of the individual, that truly influence his success in life

 
At December 08, 2005 4:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally agree with anonymous.

 
At December 08, 2005 5:03 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

To all of the wonderful anonymouses - please do me a personal favor: choose a name- and stick with it.

Any name you decide to go with will no doubt be a pseudonym, and as such will still ensure the anonymity you so desire.

 
At December 08, 2005 5:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sheitel said...
Thirty - I follow your logic, but respectfully disagree that I have 'overstepped' any lines. It would be more accurate to say that when I noticed the broken lines along the road I slipped over to 'get ahead', but I always got back into my own lane before it turned into an actual [traffic] violation.

Sheitel,............. You are full of bull, and you know that yourself.

 
At December 08, 2005 5:59 PM, Anonymous JK from KJ said...

They last two post are plagiarized. SonicWALL doesn’t allow me access, but I trust google… Here is the link. I

http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/1269

 
At December 08, 2005 6:03 PM, Anonymous jk from KJ said...

Not necessarily the last two, but the last two lengthy posts.

 
At December 08, 2005 8:46 PM, Blogger Con Artistic said...

I liked this idea of chassidishe sports. Wouldn’t it be fun to watch the finals of CLB (Chassidic League Baseball) in which Lubavitch yakes the crown for the 10th consecutive year and Satmar once again, came in second? I think I have a post in the making….

 
At December 11, 2005 1:04 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

In response to Modern's query regarding how I can support a system that, according to Mod, 'does this horrific thing' which he equated with a scenario which would indeed be truly catastrophic.

My answer, and I'll try to keep it short - is that I don't believe the results are nearly as tragic as you attempted to describe them. I believe, (and I'll go along with your analogy) that the 5% that fail don’t ‘explode’ but rather have something akin to a flat tire- or better yet, they just have a difficult time starting the engine.

And as I've said: 'Boosts' are available.

 
At December 11, 2005 1:25 AM, Blogger Totally Content said...

vfb - In regard to your assumptions that in regard to sexual abuse my primary concern would be 'covering up' so that to the outside we ‘appear’ flawless - nothing could be further from the truth. I, for one, am a big proponent of publicizing who the sex offenders are - even at the risk of such publicity hurting their children. I strongly am of the opinion that children of such a father are at risk - and therefore having their father 'outed' would indeed be in their best interest. I was appalled at the many times these incidences used to be covered up. But BARUCH HASHEM- we as a community have grown in this respect (as has the rest of the world), and are dealing with these cases more openly and accurately.

The only reason I mentioned the fact that 'statistically' we are no better - no worse - than the rest of 'em, is because of the attempts by some to portray the situation to be worse than it is. With the situation as bad as it is - why make it seem like it's worse?

I believe that as a community that is supposed to answer to a Higher Authority - the fact that the numbers even come into a similar range is indeed horrifying, and once again my recommendation stays the same - only this time I don't just suggest, but rather beseech you all: DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

 
At December 11, 2005 7:59 AM, Blogger daat y said...

These sex offenders are considered halachically 'rodfim' and must be reported!!!

 
At December 11, 2005 7:22 PM, Blogger Sol. said...

Well everyone I'm impressed and sad that we even have to discuses our personal issues on the public web where any anti-Semite can make fun of our internal problems. And the main focus is to resolve the problems with chuchma and true knowledge of real hashkafa. I think that we do have to keep on changing the tactics of chinuch. The yetzer hora also keeps on changing as we all know. But indefinite we are to change the attitude we had from the war to now. Parents are to be more educated with Jewish issues and children are allowed to ask any type of questions on Judaism there is no fear - in Judaism everything has a true answer.

 
At December 11, 2005 9:54 PM, Blogger Frum Singles said...

I have a great Shidduch for you!


This happens to me all the time. Someone will come over to me and "red" me "great" "attractive" girl etc. I think you get the drift. When I ask if (s)he has seen the girl (or a picture of her) the inevitible response is no.

Now frankly, this is arguably chutzpa and at a minimum a total lack of consideration. Basically, what I am being asked is to gamble my emotions, energy, time (and some money) so that this person may be a "winner" and be able to say that (s)he made a shiduch (and then get a brokerage fee a/k/a "shadchanuus") to boot.

If you you don't know how to cook, you don't belong in the kitchen. If you're not a doctor, you shouldn't have a medical office. If you're not a lawyer, you shouldn't hang out a shingle. AND IF YOU ARE NOT A SHADCHAN, DON"T ACT AS ONE !!!!

 
At December 12, 2005 2:22 AM, Blogger mistake said...

For goodness sakes, woman, learn where you stand!
When you came up with your thoughts that handbooks are not ok I asked you if that meant only the one with the flowers or if it also meant your personally conceived set of rules. You answered me with some hogwash of right and wrong when none of the examples I brought up had anything to do with morals.
Now you talk about the education of satmar children but u cant seem to decide whats best for them:
- Many manage fine in spite of their minimal education. As a matter of fact - most do. And I still agree wholeheartedly that a more solid secular education is nonetheless necessary. -
Are you a chossid of satmar or are you the worm that is slowly trying to eat away at the little bit of uniqueness they have left? You are caving in to the secular influence that your mom so honestly shared with you. And youre trying to bring everyone down with you. How dare you suggest taking away the choice from parents to have their son educated according to the wishes of the satmar rebbe? You sit here, on the worst of the worst – the treifena internet – (hinda halberstam’s shpitzel would fall off if she knew what kind of kefira and chatzoynias you are exposed to) and you think you can have an opinion on how hers or other innocent sheltered kinderlach should be educated. The satmar rebbe ranted against anything to do with america, but You think that a jewel of bocher whose parents want his head to be only in torah should know what the capitals of the world are. You think that it is “necessary” How dare you
- Education - and how the lack of a secular one does not necessarily hinder one later on in life. –
Idiot, its SUPPOSED to hinder one later on, from a lot of things: from being able to pick up a newspaper easily to not being able to take part in an online discussion (as one of the anonymouses shared with us in a previous post.) Be proud of it, sheitel. Be proud that ur rebbe knew exactly how much to give kids so that they can be successful but still be sheltered and HINDERED from the unnecessary. Don’t come here telling us that even though you can manage with a minimal education satmar cheder should nevertheless be teaching science or that the secular education should be well rounded. As a matter of fact, learn where you stand and learn to coherently articulate that stand without contradicting yourself in the process.
Hey, could it be you hate math cuz it has definite answers? Just a thought.
And btw to all you complainers, do as Freud tells you – blame your parents. They couldve chosen a different school. But just like parents who want their kids to grow up doctors are gonna send them to medical school and not law school, your parents sent you to grow up as kollel yingelait and women who belong at the sink…

 
At December 12, 2005 9:36 AM, Blogger turquoiseblue said...

Mistake - just an observation: You could not have chosen a better name for yourself/your views.

 
At December 12, 2005 9:55 AM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

"AND IF YOU ARE NOT A SHADCHAN, DON"T ACT AS ONE !!!!"

maybe try frumster.com??

 
At December 12, 2005 12:45 PM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

"I believe, (and I'll go along with your analogy) that the 5% that fail don’t ‘explode’ but rather have something akin to a flat tire- or better yet, they just have a difficult time starting the engine.

And as I've said: 'Boosts' are available. "

Thanks for responding to my points.

One question: what "boosts" are you refering to?? Is it job networking?? Where does one fix the "flat tires"??

And since this is a post about the book "the unchosen" what were you thinking about when you read the chapter the charachter in the book who could not find work outside of tutoring?? Was he a "flat tire example" or an "explosion" (and if he was an explosion how common is that??)

 
At December 12, 2005 1:04 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Modern - by 'boosts' I was referring to the many programs that are available for those interested in computer networking, programming, medical billing, and even the basics of real estate investing, to name a few.

"Yossi" in Unchosen was not a 'flat tire' nor an 'explosion' - but simply too lazy to apply himself. If he were to seriously care about a career as opposed to simply 'living it up' then he wouldn't have blown his chances at the opportunity the 'wonderful' program Footsteps had provided for him. If you recall, Footsteps had started their GED program and assigned Yossi with a counselor that was going to guide him to fruition. At that point though, Yossi had finally gotten hold of a girl who was willing to give him sex on a more regular basis. It wasn't as if this relationship was even remotely likely to last for the long haul - but as anyone reading about Yossi’s life would surmise, he isn't one to look at the future. Just the here and now.

Yossi's fluency with the English language seems to have been sufficient for Hella to have understood him. That being the case I beleive that had he applied himself he could have been helped with any of the 'boosts' available. As with all else, he chose what appeared to him as the easy way out.

 
At December 12, 2005 1:30 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Most people tend to choose their online moniker to describe themselves. Many blogger names do indeed aptly describe the ‘Title holder’ – yet I have yet to come across a name that says it as succinctly as Mistake. Congrats Mistake, although I believe that you perceive the interpretation of your name to be erroneous. Ironic.

While you claim to be privy to the precise intents of the Satmar Rebbe’s master plan, and that the reason for the minimal education is to indeed hinder us from all that is forbidden, you summarize it with allocating a neat spot for the Jewish woman – in front of the kitchen sink. If that was indeed the Rebbe’s intent, then why the education to begin with? In addition, consider that the Satmar Rebbe was a strong supporter of the yingeleit going out to work. He felt that kollel should be reserved for those who sincerely intended to learn, not as a cop-out from real life – but as a goal in and of itself.

I believe that the reason we teach our boys such a minimal secular education is only because it was felt to have been ‘bittul Torah’ to allocate more time to it. And precisely for that reason the Rebbe allowed us girls to have an extensive secular education – because he didn’t want us too well versed in Torah.

I am not suggesting advanced secular studies so that internet blogging becomes a pastime. I am suggesting that the basics of a secular education be taught for if or when the need arises.

 
At December 12, 2005 1:32 PM, Blogger chuck said...

frum single said:
"has seen the girl (or a picture of her"
why people so shallow you know that once she has a baby she'll look totally different
go ahead and marry for looks, than when shes fat like everyone else get divorced and try again
i dont get it how does seeing a pic make a good match, besides beauty is in the eye of the beholder
I have a coworker who's married to blue eye blondie, i think she's ugly as ....(fill in your favorite)

"AND IF YOU ARE NOT A SHADCHAN, DON"T ACT AS ONE !!!! "
I was introduced to my (still georgeous) wife by a friend
& my sister met her hubby thru a friend
I think friends know people far better than a pompous shadchan

 
At December 12, 2005 1:34 PM, Blogger chuck said...

sheitel
first time here
i think you have valid points
the chasidish world is doing fine
i wish there was a greater enphasis on midos

 
At December 12, 2005 1:46 PM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

Sheital:

If yossi serves as a support for your views then why do you dislike the book maybe you would agree then that the book was balanced??? (

 
At December 12, 2005 1:58 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

" consider that the Satmar Rebbe was a strong supporter of the yingeleit going out to work"-
and that is in your eyes considert a secular education?

 
At December 12, 2005 2:05 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

"because he didn’t want us too well versed in Torah."
is it me or are you tryin so hard to fardrei a kup?
what is the reason for not teaching more secular
education is it b/c of bitul torah or is the reason the girls are learning more secular ed. b/c not to be versed in torah learning?

 
At December 12, 2005 2:10 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

"I am suggesting that the basics of a secular education be taught for if or when the need arises."
and that NEED is for example knowing the capitals of the city's of our nation
e.t.c.

 
At December 12, 2005 2:12 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

chuk:
"the chasidish world is doing fine"

"i wish there was a greater enphasis on midos"

doesn it sound a bit confusing ?

 
At December 12, 2005 2:13 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

i mean to say a bit CONTRADICTING?

 
At December 12, 2005 2:19 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Bagabund you seem to to believe that the world consists in black and white. It doesn't.

 
At December 12, 2005 2:22 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Modern - I do believe that the Yossi characterization does indeed support some of what I claim, that many that failed - did so due to personal choice. The reason I don't agree with the book, is because it attempted to portray a guy like Yossi as an intelligent 'seeker', and subsequently 'seekers' as the typical rebels.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 
At December 12, 2005 2:28 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

hey, sheitel, i think what mistake is trying to do is take off the shaitel thats covering who you truly are. and that is :
1. you are too modern and oifgeklert for williamsburg and for satmar.
2. the only reason why you are still here is because you can convince your friends that what youre doing is ok (going to the library, watching movies, or sitting on the internet)
if not for the support of your friends you would be an outcast, and believe me you would feel it.
hey, mistake, youre brilliant how you mess with her mind. slowly but surely her true face will come out of the sheitel box.

 
At December 12, 2005 2:32 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

the post about the midos was aimed at chuck at yet you answerd it without addressing the other posts i wrote

any reson?

 
At December 12, 2005 2:34 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

and b.t.w. midos IS the biggest void in the heimishe willi and this what im tryin to make clear here

 
At December 12, 2005 2:37 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

hey mistake whats the reason for your bloging name?
is it b/c you try to say to shitel that she's MISTAKEN?
HAHAHA

 
At December 12, 2005 4:29 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Bagabund - my previous response WAS in response to your previous posts. All five of them. I prefer brevity to babbling, and concise remarks to continuous comments. But that is just me.

None of what you said rang true, and as such I didn't find the need to respond. But if you wish - I'll say it again. I'M NO OUTCAST. I AM NO MISFIT. I was raised in a Satmar home, and intend on offering my children the same golden opportunity to bee able to live life fully al pi Torah.

For all those who have these preconceived notions about how Satmar women are lacking in the brains department - perhaps the problem lies within your inability to perceive and judge your fellow human equally.

 
At December 12, 2005 4:34 PM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

"as an intelligent 'seeker', and subsequently 'seekers' as the typical rebels. "

It seems to me that none of these were seekers of the kind you describe. Rather, they were experimentors. In any event, you pointed out that yossi was lazy not exactly the profile of what you latter coined "Intelligent seeker".
Care to clue us in on the stira (gemarah loshen for contradiction).

 
At December 12, 2005 4:36 PM, Blogger mistake said...

Actually, baga, no. my pseudonym refers to my existence. I was conceived from an affair my mom had during her post-partum after the birth of my older brother. It is something that has played a large part in my life. But the reason I actually chose this name was to test who would be immature enough to focus on it. Sheitel has time and time again failed that test.
And if we are discussing names, and their interpretations, could sheitel be referring to a cover? As in someone trying to cover up her real life, thereby living a hypocritical double life. Well said, baga.

 
At December 12, 2005 4:41 PM, Blogger chuck said...

Hmmm should I respond or not?

Hey bagabund, go back to school!
Any school.
EVEN a chasidisha one.

Oops you probably already have.
I'm guessing you're an ex-chasid, which would explain your bitterness at sheitel.

I challenge you to find me a superior community than the chassidim. Yes, they need some polish, but it's in these communities that you'll find warm and generous hearts.
The profuse amount of chessed that emanates from these communities is unrivaled in any other commune.
I suppose that outsiders resent the kindness pouring forth and therefore knock them and their ilk. Poor substitute for measuring a person. I find the media flaunts their failures at every opportunity. I mean, big deal if a non Jew beat his neighbor, but if a holier than thou Chasidic Jew did it, ooh we got ourselves a whopper of a story.
Get real, see how much good these people do, than come and tell me theirs not THE best social model around.
Of course not everyone can hack it, shietel for one, can, it appears you can’t.

 
At December 12, 2005 4:57 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Modern - I said that Hella was attempting to portray Yossi as an intellectual seeker, while in reality, although he may have been intelligent he was actually rather a seeker of adventure. And as such he was too lazy to actually pursue any intellectual interests.

Does that 'farentfer' any perceived contradictions?

 
At December 12, 2005 5:03 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Mistake - Oddly enough, BEFORE the explanation I was tempted to say 'Learn from your parents' mistake - use birthcontrol.' In light of the true facts I don't want to offend. What is most important to keep in mind is that our life is ours. Our parents mistakes need not destine who and what we are in our own lives.

As for my own pseudonym - it was simply a female content version - of the male discontent Shtreimel. There is no coverup. There is no double life.

 
At December 12, 2005 5:04 PM, Blogger chuck said...

dear mistake
while i greatly empathize with you're feelings, I think that in choosing that name you are
perpetuating a myth. An affair might have been a mistake in judgment on your moms part, but to lodge this in your heart all these years?
Are you a mistake?
Do you feel like a mistake?
I sincerely hope not.
A buddy of mine lost his dad at 13. Nearly 20 years later he was complaining about his difficult upbringing. Someone mentioned that while the fact of his fathers passing remains, he now had a life influencing choice to make. Did he want pity or respect?
Dear mistake, pity gets you nowhere, while history is not going away, you don’t need to carry it in your wallet either.
Now, let get to shietel.
Having first hand associations with orthodox women, I can tell you that before going out they, as all females living in a developed part of the world, look in mirror to check their appearance. Contrary to non orthodox females, they chiefly examine their shietels as this is the first thing one notices about them.
I’d go into details about how non-Jewish women believe themselves to be body parts and for some crazy notion think they must belittle themselves and share the aforementioned with the world, but I don’t think it’ll make any difference I’d rather not waste my efforts.

 
At December 12, 2005 5:07 PM, Blogger modern chassidish said...

I will have be meayin (delve into gemarah term for review) into the chapters. I did not think (upon my inital read) that she portrayed these people as intelligent seekers who wanted answers to philosophical or theological questions. Rather, as people who were attempting to make sense of their situation. In other words, Yossi was hurt and he was looking everywhere and in anything to fix his problems. He took advice from the barber c'mon not exactly a portral of an intelictual seeker.

 
At December 12, 2005 5:07 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Thanks for the support Chuck - but let's leave poor unhappy Bagabund alone.

From the bottom of heart I wish that he would find true contentment in life. If only he would realize that the treasure is buried in his own backyard.

 
At December 12, 2005 5:46 PM, Blogger bagabund said...

blah. blah. blah.
beating around the bush.

chuck.
or you are not from this area or you have your head in the sand.

i was not complaning of orthodox society and neither of hasidic society. i am only reffering to what shitel says that it is not bad and quite a few times she is not saying the truth whats going on in WILLI (see not orthodox not hasidic)
and even though theres more charity then everywhere it still doesn take away the bad and the blunders.
and what makes it even more bad is the denying.
im from the area and im not a misfit or an outcast im actualy very happy here i have friends and i do what i have to do but i am by nature an observer and im expressing what i see and what every BAR DAAS sees
thats all
shitel: i think you are 24 years ols? oh my god will you ever come to realization 1 day i hope not the hard way
p.s. i could have been your mommy and i've seen it all

 
At December 12, 2005 5:52 PM, Blogger mistake said...

In regard to education, sheitel, it is actually not only my opinion that satmar cheder shouldn’t hold secular studies as mandatory. I discussed it with some very serious and ehrlicha satmar women who are in chinuch. I doubt u took the time to discuss your opinion with anyone like that before you came prancing on here airing all your corrupted ideas. And the allocation of the neat spot by the sink was actually rebetzin halbershtams doing. Thousands of happy faced satmar women heard her say it but somehow its not good enough for you. You seem think that you are the one who has it all figured out and should be making these decisions, not the REAL satmar people.

 
At December 12, 2005 6:01 PM, Blogger chuck said...

"but let's leave poor unhappy Bagabund alone."

Yes ma'am! It is your blog after all :)

 
At December 12, 2005 6:05 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Mistake - with all due respect, being as I don't know you and you don't know me - there truly is no way of determining which one of us has more 'inside' perspectives and opinions. I am not the only one who is of the opinion that our boys need an education that will be solid enough to assist them in financial success. While Satmar always did pride itself in producing 'learners', anyone who is in the tiniest way realistic will admit that the heimishe working man too deserves a chance at succeeding.

 
At December 25, 2005 4:19 PM, Blogger Inspired from within said...

"All I can do is recommend once again that you do better for your kids"

And how are we supposed to do that? The community does not sanction it.


I am doing just that. I am raising my kids and giving them a Secular as well as a Jewish education. But do you know the price for that?

My family has not spoken to me in 5 years.

This EDUCATION that you do provide for your kids... Let me tell you a bit about it.

My x-husband learned how to lie and cheat and steal from the goverment. He even learned (with the help of his Rabbayin) how NOT to pay child support.

I was young with no education, however I was TAUGHT that I have to get married to a boy I meet once....

Need I say more about this LACK OF EDUCATION?

 

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