Friday, February 10, 2006

How Much Is Too Much?

I’m back!

Vacation has come and gone, as has that dreaded deadline. The scary thing is the task didn’t get done. There is a beautiful thing about self-imposed deadlines – you get to readjust it as often as you like and there is no boss there to judge and complain. Actually, that is also the down-side of independence. Not only do I have to come face to face every single day - with the failure that I have become. But I don’t even have whom to blame! I can’t bitch about the task being too difficult, since I was the one who decided that it was possible in the first place!

Kinda like those who’ve shunned responsibility and the yoke of religious obligation. I feel bad for those that find that life still sucks, yet they don’t have a G-d to complain to or obligations to whine about. I don’t care what anyone says about it – but while a hefty lump of freedom certainly sweetens life, an overdose is overkill.

But that was totally not the topic that I was going to blog about! But I guess it sorta relates to my trip too. Ever been to Vegas? The initial attraction to Las Vegas is the many conventions occurring at any given time. Consequently, some of the world’s greatest performers tend to congregate there. They have their own maxim there: “Welcome to Las Vegas, where too much is never enough…” Trust me dear readers – one week in Vegas, is way more insane living than one should ever be subjected to.

Don’t get me wrong, we had a fabulous time. The strip is awesome! Especially at night! It was amazing walking around the shopping mall at The Caesar’s, The Venetian, The Aladdin and too many more places to mention. The casinos are fun for a bit, and the free attractions some hotels provide are enough to keep you busy for a few evenings in a row. The Bellagio’s water shows range from sweetly romantic melodies to ear-shattering, tap-to-the-beat, and smile-inducing rock. The Mirage volcano was pretty OK, but the effects were too obviously faked to impress. The Sirens of T.I. was a stupid performance if ever there was one. Six years ago they had the Pirate show – and I thought that was stupid. I guess I’ve learnt that just like extravagance and beauty can always be outdone – unfortunately, so can stupidity.

Six years ago many things were different. As a matter of fact, there seemed to have been intentions at that point to ‘clean up’ Sin City. There were some children’s park built, and many hotels focused on children’s attractions. And from the Jewish perspective: while six years ago there was no kosher restaurant to eat out in, at this point there are five kosher eateries, many minyanim, a kosher mikva – and a vibrant, growing Jewish community. All of that is thanks to Rabbi Shia Harlig from Chabad, whom I was privileged to personally meet, who made it his life mission to bring yiddishkeit to Las Vegas, which makes it easier for the Heimish traveler to feel more at home.

But in spite of the success with the burgeoning Jewish life there, their other attempts at reinventing this City into a family friendly place failed dramatically. As an emcee / comedian was saying ‘Bringing children to Vegas, is like taking a Hooker to Disneyland’. Sin City is back – and I don’t know if that is such a good thing…

Or rather, as they would readily admit: It’s too much of a good thing.

85 Comments:

At February 10, 2006 4:17 PM, Blogger InterestedJew said...

Looks like Vegas is the new, hot destination for Chasidim! Maybe some developer should build a little faux shtetl there. If they can have Paris and Venice and the pyramids, why not a replica of Lee Avenue, or 13th Avenue, or 770? There has to be some Chasidish real estate maven out there who could make this happen, no?

 
At February 11, 2006 9:18 PM, Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I think that people in Las Vegas are realizing that families bring more money and fewer problems than single tourists. Amsterdam is trying to do the same thing. However it does sound like have a they a way to go.

Perhaps the city of Las Vegas should hire Mrs. Sheitel as a consultant?

 
At February 12, 2006 12:01 AM, Blogger Imfullofit said...

Interested... you mentioned "There has to be some Chasidish real estate maven out there who could make this happen, no? "
Believe me they already exist. Although I dont think their primary intest is to create a shtetl but where there is $ you'll find the Jews.
I've been to Vegas it is phenominal. I was at a different Shliachs house for shabbos. the heat there was crazy! But the hotels are beautiful. Plan a nice vacation there with enough time to see a lot, not everything, i dont think that is possible. Glad to hear you had a nice time.

 
At February 12, 2006 2:55 PM, Blogger Sol. said...

So was I in the west coast last weekend
The weather was just perfect in LA to bad the Heimish community didn’t develop there.

 
At February 13, 2006 6:03 PM, Blogger stillchoosing said...

Sheitel,

Welcome back,looks like you had a great vocation in "Sin City" everyone is entitled to one especially a hard working woman like yourself. Its nice of you to share that experience with us it was a real pleasure reading it. But what I have an issue with, is not related to your vocation but with your outlook in life:

"Kinda like those who’ve shunned responsibility and the yoke of religious obligation"

To put those two in one sentence is just wrong. There are those that have given up religion but have not shunned there responsibilities at all.

"I feel bad for those that find that life still sucks, yet they don’t have a G-d to complain to or obligations to whine about"

Yes you are right,they don't have a G-d to complain to,but don't you think that - self inflicting pain - is more bearable the that imposed by others. I think you should feel bad for those who pray and complain to G-d but don't get answered.

I am glad you are back keep on writing I am "Stilchoosing"

 
At February 13, 2006 6:28 PM, Blogger chuck said...

oh come on vegas?
vi past for a chasidish maydle to be there let alone your hubby!
sure sure they 'cleaned up'
vegas land of priztus
bet your hubby didnt daven with minyan
didya eat only chasidisha sh'chieta
did your hubby not see any hot (let alone topless) chicks roaming around

in short, was it something a rov would approve? ha ha ha

call yourself a chasid PULEEZE!

 
At February 13, 2006 7:29 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At February 13, 2006 7:31 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At February 13, 2006 7:33 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

“was it something a rov would approve?”

Well, for business reasons, in order not to lose an advantage over a competitor, she probably would have gained approval from her rov.

“vi past for a chasidish maydle to be there let alone your hubby!”

Wait a second, chuck. If I were to attend a convention in Vegas, I would most probably take along my wife, and for reasons we seem to have agreed on in the past; it would suffice to call it: Safeguarding!

You see? It may very well be the case that a ‘chasidish maydle’ accompanied her ‘hubby’ in his approved trip to Vegas in order to execute a holy mission ----- actually her duty.

 
At February 14, 2006 11:06 AM, Blogger chuck said...

dear KJ from JK
it was a vacation!!
and even if itwas business, a real rav would not allow 'sliding' just for money
and if they did go, on just a vacation, i hope they got a lot of 'holy mission'
i always thought that was the main purpose :)

 
At February 14, 2006 4:35 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

I’m not here to guess whether or not it was primarily a business trip. I was simply presenting you with a scenario.

However, if you really want to become technical, I have many acceptable practices which I doubt they could hold out your tznius criteria.

For example, riding the NYC subways in rush-hour while being sandwiched between two you-know-what…. does that have the approval from a ‘real rav’?

Also, since when has time square been declared free of “roaming”? (ok, your cell phone doesn’t count…) Because it’s not officially called so ---- then there is no sin in NY City?

Finally, is the internet less Sin City than Vegas? Perhaps we should all go offline and become shoe-shiners! (of course, not on fifth Av.)

When evaluating the impact of a city’s tznius contamination, what’s the difference between two cities where one has the roaming element as a side dish while the other has it as a main dish? Neither has them for a snack! Which city qualifies for the money hecsher?

 
At February 14, 2006 6:43 PM, Blogger chuck said...

OK OK I agree that its never 100% kosher anywhere except in your own home, shutters nailed down, electronic devices all gone, etc

i've been on them subways you got ooglers who love 'riding the NYC subways in rush-hour while being sandwiched between two you-know-whats' and then you got guys who stand at the ends looking into a sefer or book TRYING to keep kosher

I'm just saying that one does NOT have to vacation in sin city and it definitely behooves a so called chosid not to i mean go to israel or LA or someplace less....unkosher

oh ya regarding "Perhaps we should all go offline and become shoe-shiners"
not a bad idea but not practical - more practical internet behavior is doin' the lakewood method

 
At February 14, 2006 9:54 PM, Blogger lokshin said...

did u atleast go with ur seams and all to all these heilige places

 
At February 14, 2006 10:20 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At February 14, 2006 10:22 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

Chuck, in case you didn’t notice, between “being sandwiched,” and “a love to be sandwiched” a bird could easily get lost.

How lucky does subway rider have to be to find a private quarter on rush hour? Let alone the luxury of ‘looking into a sefer’. I’ve tried it myself, making use out of my traveling time. I ended up just transferring books back and forth, for the same token!

Lokshin, a hippie has the liberty to wear his most bizarre clothing, but a Satmar girl wearing seams does not? Do you really care how this woman, in the seat in front of you, at the show chooses to dress? If she doesn’t, why should you?

I can hear your question in a different way. How is it possible that some people are soooo content, no matter where they are or how they look? Is there something they have and I don’t?

Lokshin, the answer is YES! They have self confidence, and it’s never too late to start working on it!

 
At February 15, 2006 1:43 PM, Blogger chuck said...

luckshin:
a chasidishe friend of mine went with his wife and his brother + spouse to a water park

WATER PARK!!!!

yes yes, a water park
i hear ya I hear ya how the heck did chasidishe women (let alone men) go to water park?

they ,the guys went with long bathing trunks over the knee
and tee shirts
the froyen went in body suits covered by a model coat and stockings and bathing caps under a turban style tichal

now if youre askin me i think that they bent the rules there somewhat
but they went dressed as they felt appropriate and didnt give a flying rats @#$ regarging as to what others would say

SIR JK:
I didn't say the subway was easy for all those who actually find it impossible, take the hiemy bus even the one that's got a dafyomi goin'

 
At February 15, 2006 5:21 PM, Blogger UTTERLY CONFUSED said...

I have been following this blog for some time now, and it looks like sheitel is indirectly challenging and protesting the system.
shietel
Whith your bragging about going to sin city (which of course you could only do online) you are only hurting the cause of the establishment of your blog.

 
At February 15, 2006 11:53 PM, Blogger Semgirl said...

I have to agree with utterly confused on this one.

Also, if it was a business trip and you spoke to a Rov, cool.

But, if it was a vacation, there are like a billion places that are more appropriate for any Orthodox Jew, let alone a Villiamburger fro.. What is going on with you.

Whose crazy idea was this, you or your husband..

As for the subway, I have heard that Reb Moshe has a Tshuva, that it is ok for men, only for Parnasa and only if they cant control themselves not to look at bad things, and for women also, preferably only for a need like shopping, not just to galavant about.

 
At February 16, 2006 8:40 AM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Semgirl,
Of course you don't get it.
You are a "moderene" girl from Lakewood.
You speak English to your 3 year old siblings.
You don't say "elokienie" you say "elokenu".
You wear navy stockings.
You drive.
You will wear a really long fall shaitel down past your shoulder.
You also wear long denim skirts down to your ankles.
Who knows, perhaps you even wear nail polish and bobby socks!
You won't shave your hair off like shaitel does, and you will wear a snood.
Your husband will be clean shaven and won't even perm his payos.
Of course you don't understand how and why Shaitel spends her vacation in "sin city."
You don't understand cause you're not haimish.
You are not the rechosen.
Shaietel is. She is the real deal.
Shaitel's husband drives an SUV while yours will drive an old beat up jalopy.
After all, she shops at Saks Fifth, while you do at Target and Marchels.

 
At February 16, 2006 10:20 AM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

‘Hoezentragerin’, sarcastic but not sarcastic enough.

I mean, you shouldn’t have let pass the opportunity to make the logical and persuasive argument that the underlying reason why Sheitel craves for Sin City is because, and only because, she indeed wears a sheitel and seams. That’s why she feels deprived and lacks satisfaction, that’s why she is forced to be looking for contentment in Sin City.

Whereas those who are lucky to speak English, say "elokenu, wear navy stockings, drive, wear a really long fall shaitel, wear long denim skirts, wear nail polish,” etc. are overfilled with joy and have reached their final aspirations, the climax of happiness, therefore need nothing more.

Folks, have you ever tried saying ‘elokenu’ instead of ‘elokienie’? Try it, you’ll thank me forever. I once tried it; I instantly felt like dancing, there was this inner joy attempting to burst out. It’s an unbelievable delightful feeling….



When looking at the friendly attacks on her decision to fly to Vegas, Sheitel finds herself in a dilemma. Should she fly to Vegas, but without her seams, as one has suggested. Or should she eliminate the seams altogether, thereby sparing the need of going to Vegas. Either way will work against the very path she chose follow ---- to act in accord with her instincts and not be carried away by fear of whether or not her neighbors, classmates and fellow bloggers will approve of her actions.

Sheitel, I say your Vegas trip was absolutely consistent with your blog’s message.

 
At February 16, 2006 12:14 PM, Blogger stillchoosing said...

Hoz,

I sense some jealousy here. I am not sure if it is for the, snood, clean shaven the SUV, or the trip to Vegas. Something tells me its all of the above. I am sorry for you that life has not presented it self to you the way you would have loved for it to be.

I am not sure why Sheitel chose Vegas for her Vocation, But my best guess is that her husband was attending a business convention so they decided to combine it - a business/vocation trip - smart idea.
Everybody that has been to Vegas recently can witness that this has become very common amongst frum yidden from all walks of life Chasidish ,litvish, MO Etc.

As Sheitel pointed out it is very convened today for a frum Jew to travel to Los Vegas.If you "choose" to go it is needless to say, go with your wife! and have fun in Vegas.

As the saying goes "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" unless you blog about it...

KJ good job keep it up!

 
At February 16, 2006 12:29 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

"I am sorry for you that life has not presented it self to you the way you would have loved for it to be."

StillConfusing,
You know nothing about me or the type of life I lead. I give you the libery to save those tears for others.

 
At February 16, 2006 1:32 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Ho - I would have agreed with you that Stillchoosing was audacious and presumptuous in assuming to know what your life is like - - when I realized that the reason this bugs you is only because apparently you have reserved the privilege to assume.

Had you perhaps followed my blogs a bit more closely, you might have noticed some minor details that will negate many of your opinions. For starters – as I’ve pointed out in the past, there is one typical female pastime that I detest – and it is not necessarily one Williamsburg residents have the monopoly on. And that is shopping. Be it Saks Fifth Avenue, or H & M. I hate spending money. Ironically, the one store that I do frequent is Target.

Dunno why I chose to clarify this point, when there are so many other discrepancies... It’s just that this isn’t the first time a commenter has attempted to belittle me with something so laughable and irrelevant --- and my pet peeve, to boot!

 
At February 16, 2006 1:40 PM, Blogger Semgirl said...

Nice to see you again, HT.. You are one of my favorite blog people, and I always like reading your comments, but I still don't understand what you are trying to say. I should marry a bear in a Purim costume, make myself look ugly, and then go somewhere to flush my Ruchnius down the toilet ?

As for Saks Fifth Ave or Target, I would be happy to go the clothing Gemach, so my husband could learn another blatt Gammara..

 
At February 16, 2006 2:22 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Semgirl,
Shaitel portrays herself as being this prototypical Chasiidishe woman, when in essence she aligns herself with Satmara dogma as much as I do with vegetarianism.
I mentioned driving and wearing colored stockings to make the point that though she can't (yet) do the things you do without being called "modern," she will go to Vegas while you sit their gawking.
But of course, Shaietel claims to be "totally contend." She is so very frum and doesn't even want to drive because she truly believes it to be very peruzesdig.
On the other hand, in the privacy of her home and blog though, she perhaps is totally contend.
Of course, you would be too if you would drop many of the gedorim and chumras your community subscribes to.

I don't proclaim to be any holier or frummer than Shaietel.
The difference between the two of us is not so much in action as it is in perception.
Shaietel believes that she is a staunch follower and believer in Satmara theology and the Chasidishe way of life.
I believe that her-our version is closer to those of the "unchosens" than it is of the rechosens.

 
At February 16, 2006 5:47 PM, Blogger UTTERLY CONFUSED said...

Hoz,
I couldn't agree with you more on that last post. Well put!

 
At February 16, 2006 7:04 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

I don't know much about sheitel's life, but this much I can say I grew up in a satmar home, I was not even allowed to go into manhattan, or take the subway, the first time I rote the subways in nyc, was after I was allready engaged, and my sister in law took me out shopping, even then my parents threw a fit that I shouldn't go into manhattan, god forbid will see goyim and pritzas, I can't imagin any frum girl being allowed to go to las vages on a vacation and not be looked down upon in her circles, Of course you can go, but you wont go brag about it to your family and friends, unless your all doing the same thing and hiding it from everyone else, I could never go see a broadway show or watch a movie with out going behind by parents back, I had to lie constantly not to get into trouble, I bought a an alarm clock that came with AM/FM radio, my father threw a fit, why I brought a Tumana kayle (unclean objact) into the house, I put had to put black electric tape on the dail and broke off the botton so he would calm down that I disabled it, but of course I got my self head phones that goes into your ears not noticalbe, so that I can listen to the raido while im laying on the side on my pillow at night trembling in fear that my father might catch me listen to the radio god forbid, I was not allowed to listen to MBD or avrom fried cause they are modern and considerd non kosher music, most of the friends I had where pretty much in the same boat, Sheitel can say what ever she says here and try to bull shit you guys that living her life style is contant, You can't do this things your doing and not hide it from the community you live in, aspecaily having internet, Yes, there are many chassidim on line and many who do all those things that is not according to there community standards, Those are called the bumish ones bums or what ever else they label you.
You can't be telling me that this is called being contant, this is called living a lie and hiding from your own self identity, You may be happy with what your doing, cause you do what ever you choose to do despite of what the community expects from you, but in no way shape or form are you living a chassidishe life style by satmar standards. Your not making me or anyone else who knows what being and living in a satmar community is, think any different when you try to potray it the way you do..

 
At February 16, 2006 7:35 PM, Blogger yeshivaguy said...

I love it! Semgirl does pretty much as she pleases w/regard to hanging out with guys etc., but she's confused at Sheitel bending some rules in Vegas. What's to be confused about? She's doing what you do, only in a different venue.

But I've gotta admit, it is hilarious to see a woman who purports to defend the meaningfulness of the female chassidishe life spending her vacation in Sin City. You're right, Sheitel, being a chassidish lady in Willy is no problem if you can let your hair down in Vegas now and then.

 
At February 16, 2006 7:38 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

sheitel came on line to blog wanting to prove how contant satmar is, when she her self is going against there standard being on the interent.

 
At February 16, 2006 7:42 PM, Blogger yeshivaguy said...

I'd say that after this post you don't need to bother with the long-awaited, long-delayed post regarding "heimish women fulfilling their potential." I think we get it now.

 
At February 16, 2006 7:50 PM, Blogger HumanBeforeJewish said...

so ure SatWilSidic? ok, what do your SatWilSidic friends say to the fact that u use the internet for non-business purposes? or do they even know? how about ur kids' school/yeshiva? do those institutions know that u have a computer or access to one?
you may live in willy, you may be chassidish, and you may be content - but finding ways around situations and creating ur own loopholes does not mean content!!

 
At February 16, 2006 7:51 PM, Blogger HumanBeforeJewish said...

oh, and you are most certainly intelligent and a great writer.

 
At February 17, 2006 8:37 AM, Blogger UTTERLY CONFUSED said...

I can't go as far as begreatfull portrays it, because doing those stuff was never condemned by my family, but certianly couldn't be shared with outside company. This point shietel will never be able to prove.

 
At February 17, 2006 11:56 AM, Blogger Also A Chussid said...

Begreatfull,

I do not doubt the story you tell, but please, for the love of GOD, cant you admit that things are not like this anymore???

 
At February 17, 2006 12:28 PM, Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"cant you admit that things are not like this anymore???"

Oh please, baloney. Stop with the apologetics already.

 
At February 17, 2006 1:02 PM, Blogger Also A Chussid said...

Yeshivaguy,

Please don’t confuse, stating facts, with being apologetic.

 
At February 17, 2006 3:13 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

I’m becoming increasingly annoyed with all these comments that somehow are implying that external trappings are responsible for internal happiness and general contentment in life.

I live a wonderfully happy life right here - right now. The trip to Vegas did little to increase my contentment, except for the fact that I got to spend quite a bit of alone time with my husband. That was great – but that could have been accomplished anywhere: Miami, Orlando, Niagara Falls, Washington D.C. - - or Vegas. Being that we had already done all the others and the fact that circumstances had necessitated this trip, we made the most of it. Amongst the company we kept there were too many heimishe Williamsburg people to count. From regular baal batishe people to women in shpitzlech. That is so often swarming with ‘heimishe’ that I literally am having a hard time understanding this reaction my ‘sharing’ has received.

It is true that the fact that I shared with friends and family where I went - proves nothing. The fact that friends and family know about this blog - doesn't prove anything either. And the fact that I am blogging altogether- proves even less.

None of that changes who I am. Or the fact that I am actively a part of a community that I know and love. I participate in and facilitate many of the functions. I am proudly Satmar - and have no intentions of changing 'lanes'.

I've heard of people living lives like begreatfull had, and that is truly sad. As sad as the well known fact that there are those that have suffered emotional, physical or sexual abuse in any environment. There are parents who lack parenting abilities and will force their ideology - whatever that may be - on their children.

But please believe me when I tell you that there are many many sane members, and therefore sane families, in this wonderful little community. None of my friends got into trouble for listening to the radio. Not that ‘listening to radio’ was all that exciting. It was a regular part of day. If I wanted to know the weather I would ‘tune in’. January 16 1991 we all sat around listening with a bowl of popcorn on our laps – similar to all those families that were glued to the screen around the world. Sleepovers with friends usually included movies. Clean movies, that had passed parental inspection - of course. But movies nonetheless. The music I listened to back then was usually MBD, Miami Boys, London School of Jewish Song and Yisroel Williger. All tapes that are sold ‘openly’ in any music shop in Williambsburg. As a matter of fact – the seforim stores have no problem carrying them either. I never listened to these on my headphones though- but rather the main stereo. Mostly because I wasn't ever a major fan of music – and headphones weren't ever 'my thing'.

I have no intention of constantly proving that I am who I say I am. But for the record I want it noted that I am indeed Satmar, Williamsburg, Chasidish, Female - - and content… not IN SPITE of it, but BECAUSE of it.

 
At February 17, 2006 3:19 PM, Blogger HumanBeforeJewish said...

i believe that u believe everything uve written, but i dont believe that u r content with the prescribed satmar way of life. u may be living ur own version of the satmar life, but it isnt the same as what is generally acceptable in satmar - i.e. boys riding bikes, having a computer (much less the internet) at home, listening to lipa schmelzer or mbd in his heyday, wearing sunglasses, etc...

 
At February 17, 2006 3:29 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

Human - The only point I attempted to make is that Williamsburg and Satmar are made up of many different individuals. That being the case, who I am has never stood in the way of me being both Satmar and a part of Williamsburg. But you already knew that.

What would interest you perhaps even more, is the wonderfully happy lives my friends lead – even though some of them don’t have a computer at home. Or a radio. Or the fact that they don’t bother with watching a movie.

Or the fact that they never wear sunglasses… I’m sure that it’s hard to believe that life can be sunny in spite of it.

 
At February 17, 2006 3:35 PM, Blogger HumanBeforeJewish said...

not at all. i have no problem believing that there are women and men who are satisfied and 100% content with the satmar way of life, because some of them are my relatives. what i'm saying is that YOU are not one of them.

 
At February 17, 2006 3:37 PM, Blogger her nor said...

I have no intention of constantly proving that I am who I say I am. But for the record I want it noted that I am indeed Satmar, Williamsburg, Chasidish, Female - - and content… not IN SPITE of it, but BECAUSE of it.

Oh and you forgot to include, BUM. Cause that's what everyone else in your community would call you.

 
At February 17, 2006 3:42 PM, Blogger her nor said...

Question for Shaitel,
Is being BI acceptable in the Satmar community?

 
At February 17, 2006 5:22 PM, Blogger InterestedJew said...

Sheitel,
I think BG and others are right. You may call yourself "Satmar" and I have no doubt that you are, and consider yourself to be, a full-fledged member of that community. However, there are certain things that the leadership in your community stands for, certain official rules that exist, the violation of which could cause your children to be kicked out of school and even shunned by others. I have seen the admission papers and know what you have to sign when you send your kid to school. Maybe you disagree with these rules. Maybe you would like to see them changed. But this is the "official" face of Satmar, like it or not. What people like you show, however, is that there is a different Satmar "on the street," so to speak. Maybe one day the two will actually meet.

 
At February 17, 2006 7:07 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Interestedjew:

Those like sheitel are called Kakmer chassidim, Not Satmar chassidim.

Sheitel:
lets put it this way be who ever the hell you want to be I honestly don't care, Just for everyone else here I can say your not following the deivray yoel of the old satmar rabbi z'tl

I honestly don't give a hood what you do with your life, I just tell it as it is, I lived and went to school in satmar and You won't make me belive the crap you say here.


AAC:

For the Love Of God THAT I HAVE TO HIM, I can't lie.. And I won't !!

May you all have a wonderful shabbes

 
At February 17, 2006 7:16 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Sheitel:

Most of the things your said made sense until you got to where the radio part and watching movies part, thats where your ruined it for your self..
Please stop potraying a false view on satmar, satmar is not proud that your on the internet blogging they are not proud that your watching movies they are not proud that you listen to the radio, they are not proud that you embaress them on line like this ..

 
At February 18, 2006 7:02 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

" January 16 1991 we all sat around listening with a bowl of popcorn on our laps – similar to all those families that were glued to the screen around the world. "

Right. And then the next day at school, did you share with your teacher what exactly you heard on the radio and which station you listened to?

I've asked the question before and will ask it again.
Shaitel, what exactly makes you Satmar? How are you as a Satmare woman different from the rest of the frum world?
Aside from the fact that you don't go to the kosel and are rabidly anti- Zionist, of course.

 
At February 18, 2006 8:35 PM, Blogger RoZ said...

Who actually makes the rules? Is here some guide out there? A leader of the community? I live in Crown Heights & my view of Williamsburg is more how Begreatfull describes it. Sheitel, in your opinion, is the majority of that community like the way she describes it or the way you live? Does one side condemn the other?

 
At February 18, 2006 9:28 PM, Blogger Semgirl said...

Sheitel... Me doth thinketh thou protesteth too much.. Thats Shakespeare for all of you "real" Satmars out there.

HT.. So basically you are saying that Sheitl and HR are much more similar than they care to admit, hence all the fireworks between them in the past.

 
At February 19, 2006 12:24 PM, Blogger Also A Chussid said...

BeGreatful,

Do your siblings behave, towards their children, in the same manner as your parents did with you?

If the answer is no, then things are changing. It’s a new generation, and I don’t see any of my friends treating their kids, in the same way my parents did, even the frummy ones.

 
At February 19, 2006 1:34 PM, Blogger pinke-budgies said...

Hello my dear – what a post you have written
Lets make this clear – my cute little bi kitten

Its crystal clear for all – that you are dying to be a goita
Now you really took the fall – you attracted “Also A Shoita”

Your writing skills are so poor – it really makes me laugh
Guess what you have no more – your bitch, JBF

But you can get over this hurtle - and rub your belly
Because you have a new female turtle – his name is “Also A Smelly”

I am a bit jealous I will not lie - my cute little curley
You hooked up with another Bi – WOW! “Its Also A Girlie”

After all is said and done - I still love you plenty
You are a bunch of fun – my cute satmare bi yenta


Love Pinke

 
At February 19, 2006 1:41 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

AAC:

Of course not, All my siblings treat there kids very well and with a lot of love, Interestingly enough despite all the abuse we all had to go through at home, where all I think great parents to our kids, but thats not the point here, I'm not applying that all parents in the chassidish communities are that extrem to there kids the way my parents where, but I'm talking about the rules, no radio, no movies, no outside magazines no going to place that are not considered yiddishlech, They still don't allow that anywhere in the satmar community.
there is a lot of restrictions and rules that if you brake them your considered a shiksa or a bum, Take for instaed lipa shmeltzers tapes, or the movie that just came out called Gesheft, I was at a friends house yesterday and he had it up on his wall the (isurim) that they made against it. There is always exceptions to the rules, people who do what they want despite of what there community standards is or expects of them, all im saying don't come and tell me that this is not still going on in the chassidish communities if you brake the rules your not looked up to or respected, You and sheitel are trying very hard to tell me and everyone else a bunch of bull that its not like this today. Of course you and sheitel and everyone else who goes on line using internet and watching movies your simply hiding it and going against your community standards, Your not going to brag about this in shul or at bikur cholim parties, guess what I watched this movie last night JLO is really hot don't you think?
Come on I bet you don't do that..

 
At February 19, 2006 1:45 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

The only time you do discuss this, is with your own chavrah with your group of bums..

 
At February 19, 2006 5:31 PM, Blogger InterestedJew said...

I think BG makes an excellent point that a lot of people have tried to make here many times: as a chusid, you can certainly "get away with" doing all sorts of things as long as you hide your behavior or keep it only among your friends. Maybe this makes you happy, but let me try to explain why it makes some other people angry. If you are reading secular books, watching movies, going to Vegas, etc., then you obviously must not believe there is anything wrong with this behavior. And if this is the case, why don't you have the b*lls to come out and stand up for what you believe in publicly? My guess is that it is much easier to live this kind of double life than to even contemplate losing contact with your children, or being ostracized and maybe even having to leave many things you love behind. So you are stuck. This is not your fault, of course, but a function of the "system" you are in. But that system is only going to change when people like you speak out, instead of maintaining appearances and doing whatever you want behind closed doors. What you are doing only props up the "system" and passes on the problems to future generations. But maybe is it unfair of us readers to expect you to take such risks. Doing so is not for the fainthearted!

 
At February 19, 2006 6:47 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Interestedjew:

exactly my point, I just want to say you have great writing skills and you come across very clear,
I'm still learning how to spell, You do a great job in articulating and making it clearer,
I lived a double life a good half of my life too, and trust me it was horrible the fear the lie's the deciving everyone around me, talk about being in jail and afraid of your own shadow, living a double life is sad. Of course it takes a lot of guts and a pair of b*lls to stand up for what you belive in and be honest to your self and others, and be willing to take the risk of losing your family and friends, but you know what, I thank god today for not having this in my life anymore, I have astablished a relativly good realationship with my parents and family, sometimes you'll be suprised how people can adapt and learn to accept you for who you are, maybe not accept your way of life but still try to treat me with respect and allow me to come into there house and be a part of the family. I'm glad I dont have to continue lying and pretanding to be something that I'm not, The way i see it your live once and your the one responsible for how you live your life, not anyone around you..

 
At February 19, 2006 7:30 PM, Blogger InterestedJew said...

Thanks for the compliment, BG, but English was my first language so I've had a lot of practice! I really admire people like you, who know many languages and are also undaunted by the challenge of learning a new one.

 
At February 19, 2006 8:19 PM, Blogger Totally Content said...

I’ll be posting something new quite shortly, where I’ll be addressing what Williamsburg residency entails – and all the issues InterestedJew and Begreatfull have broached. But for now, if I may…

HBJ – being Satmar and proud of it, I fail to see how you can perceive any lack of contentment due to anything I’ve shared so far. I live my life as I was raised to live it. I’m a pride and joy to my parents and grandparents, and I do hope and pray that my children too will follow these well-tread footsteps, and always be a source of nachas.

Her Nor – While your assumptions were quite irrelevant and erroneous, I will respond in regard to your ‘bi’ concern, mostly to point out how ridiculous the comment itself was.

In Williamsburg being ‘openly’ straight isn’t acceptable either. There are certain codes of behavior that have been accepted for tznius purposes. PDA (public display of affection) hasn’t been.

Ho – “Right. And then the next day at school, did you share with your teacher what exactly you heard on the radio and which station you listened to?”

Ironically, in a ‘speech’ that I had to make that year, I did indeed mention ‘on January 16th we all stopped what we were doing to ‘listen in’ – what is to happen next…’ It was just odd that you questioned that particular issue. Oh, and I got a top grade for that assignment.

Roz – “I live in Crown Heights & my view of Williamsburg is more how Begreatfull describes it.”

While I do know that the family life she describes does indeed exist, I can not say that they are remotely in the majority. Out of 35 classmates, I don’t believe we had even 5 girls that were raised in such extreme environments.

As for ‘does one side condemn the other?’ I’ve noticed often that regardless of where we are in life – we tend to think of ourselves as the ‘norm’ with others doing either ‘too much’ or ‘too little’. I believe that that would aptly sum up the attitude in Williamsburg too.

As for InterestedJew and BG – I’ll address most of your issues in my next post.

BTW BG, just wondering – how many languages do you speak? I was under the impression that like me, Yiddish is your first language – and the only other language we learnt in school was English. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 
At February 19, 2006 8:21 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Interested:

Your very welcome!!

I'm on to spanish now my 4th language, I enjoy learning different cultures and learning something new every day, I hope I never think that I know it all, or that I'm perfect, cause than my life will lose value, I think its important to know that You don't know everything, so you have room to learn and grow,Its about Progress not Perfection..

 
At February 19, 2006 8:49 PM, Blogger her nor said...

Her Nor – While your assumptions were quite irrelevant and erroneous, I will respond in regard to your ‘bi’ concern, mostly to point out how ridiculous the comment itself was.

Sh(e)it- my question was far from irrelevent, and YOU know that as well as anyone else.............

 
At February 19, 2006 8:54 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Sheitel:

again I don't care what kind of life you lead, it hardly effects me, I just disagree when people decive and lie to others, or say things to make it look like something that is not true, You may be fortunate enough to have had a decent upbring and a home where those things you mention where allowed, I was speaking from a satmar point of view, and the way your potraying it is not exactly the case, even today with the world being more open minded and all, its still not allowed to have video or interent at home, or listen to raido in the satmar communities, many of my friends still live a very shelterd life weather they are ok with it or not is not the point either, even if you take out my personal experince and my upbring, still satmar has rules and regulations as a chassides there derech and there takunas doesn't allow for what your descirbe here, thats really the bottom line, and like I said you doing what your doing, doesn't speak for satmar as a whole its your own personal choice what you do with your life, but by far its no choice or derech of the satmar standards, it's not how you describe it, I'm in willy many times and I see the life they live, I don't see anywhere I go a TV or VCR in a regular satmar home even those that are not so strict, the ones that do have it will hide it from there kids and community.

Your not going to admit it your self maybe you have to much of an ego I don't know?
if you would say here that yes im doing all this and im not sharing it with my community that would make sense, but your simply avoiding the question many asked you here, about weather or not your kids schools/yashiva are okay with it or not? Maybe your kids are not old enough yet that you can't asnwer that question? I don't really care..

You have to be honest thats all, you can of course lie here, but you can't lie to me and many of us who know, and those who still live inside your community about the truth.

Regarding your question, I speak ivrit, yiddish, english, and a bit of spanish!

Her Nor:

Bi in satmar? Isn't everyone bi in satmar? that was my impresstion ;-)
What do you expect they put the boys with the boys all there life, and the girls with the girls, isn't that creating a gay community?

 
At February 19, 2006 9:16 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

I speak ivrit, yiddish, english, and a bit of spanish!

Hu? You speak Ivrit?
No wonder you're a shiksa.

 
At February 19, 2006 9:39 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Hoz:
Die gliebst vus a shiksa ich bein geveron a tzioynee fien satmar? Loy Alaynu..

I speak the most forrbiden language by satmar belive it or not, In satmar its the worst thing that you speak ivrit, Nisht mer ge'dacht.. Oyf Aleh Yiddish kinder gezukt gevoren..

 
At February 20, 2006 2:10 PM, Blogger yeshivaguy said...

What Be Grateful says is so true. There's no denying it. I wait with bated breath to see Sheitel rebut this stuff in the forthcoming post. (Or will this be like the long-promised, never-delivered post about the contentment of Satmar women? Time will tell.)

 
At February 20, 2006 2:21 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Yashivaguy:

Sheitel can post all she wants and try to rebut this stuff in her next post, she won't be proving anything, at least not to me, if all she does is continue with lie's, It's not going to change the facts, her all purpose of this blog is how she wants us to precive satmar and her conantment with it, the way she potrays it is not what satmar community really stands for.
She can say it over and over again, it wont prove anything to me. I lived it for many years I don't need her to tell me what satmar is all about.

 
At February 20, 2006 3:27 PM, Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Hey, BG, you're preaching to the converted. Most of the commenters here are not some frei yahoos who know nothing about frumme or chassidishe life. And we all know that if Sheitel would publicly acknowledge (say, to the administration of her kids' schools) some of her activities, she would be ois-Satmar faster than you could say boo. So, yeah, you can be content in Willy even if you like R movies and gambling and pop music. But not if you follow all the rules.

 
At February 20, 2006 3:33 PM, Blogger Truth Seeker said...

I live in Williamsburg, and I do a lot of stuff thats not in the guied lines of willy , and I’ll admit I can’t share any of this stuff to my family or to my not so close friends…..

I think there is nothing wrong with having some rolls and I respect the rolls, but most ppl don’t follow the rolls these days and hide it from one another, the reason is simple, they main focus in School/Chider today is Tsneiz (excuse my spelling never learned how lol) what you should wear, that’s all they talk about all day, and Torah and Yiddishkit is secondary .

This story will prove the point you all were trying to say.

I went to a blockbuster close to willy one M”Y, it was full with chassidish/willy ppl (a lot of them which I would never believe they even know what a movie is) everyone was trying to hide from the others, looking over every second to the other row if they other chosid is coming there way, lol no more commends needed.

Enjoy, Life

 
At February 20, 2006 5:48 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Trueseeker:

I use to scream out Mayriv a Tzenter in bluckbuster ;-) I know that many chassidim go there and I know about what they do, It's no news to me, All im saying is don't bs that this is satmar standards by far no, or conantment when you have to hide and lie about what you do, to your yashivas friends and communities, I don't see this as being honest to what you call your self be it satmar viznitz or what ever chassidus you might come from. This is living a double life to me.

 
At February 20, 2006 5:58 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

yashivaguy:

The problam is sheitel knows it too but she won't admit the truth.. but again I really don't care what she does or doesn't do. Yes we all know the b.s inside out. I just wonder how someone can be in such denial and continuously lie, instead of being honest, fine- you do what you do, but don't come and say this is okay in satmar or the chassidish communities.

 
At February 20, 2006 7:19 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

Implying that a person without access to internet, movies, etc. cannot be content is logically equivalent to suggesting that if one DOES have access, he or she MUST be content.

Neither is true!

If someone is looking to rub it in for Satmar he or she chose the wrong argument; I’m sure there are better ways to get them upset ---- perhaps by speaking ivrit! othc!


begreatfull, you speak ivrit? Why not replace Shikse with זונה ?

 
At February 20, 2006 7:49 PM, Blogger her nor said...

"begreatfull, you speak ivrit? Why not replace Shikse with זונה ?

J(er)k, We all know where your mind is at 24/7...."

Just stay in KJ please. Leave your verbal diarrhea
right there.

 
At February 20, 2006 8:56 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Jk:

what you said is exactly what I expect of you, of course if a woman that grew up in frum chassidish home, and starts living a different life style, leaves her community behind, that of course automatically she becomes a zoyne, I don't blame you for being ignorant, this is what I told hella, if you read my chapter in the book you will see, exactly this.
it comes from simply being ignorant to think that a woman that leaves has no morals or values & with out any boundries, It's not my job to fix and change your way of thinking.
in fact I think today I have more morals then what I ever had in the past while I was living a chassidishe frum life style.

 
At February 20, 2006 10:25 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

Speaking about 'verbal diarrhea' let’s establish: Who keeps on throwing the 'bi' word without hesitation, just because someone had the chutzpah of going online and claim to be content???

Begreatfull:
You do seem to be a person in search for the truth. I sympathize with you and wish you the best in finding whatever you deem right and acceptable. I apologize for misinterpreting the word Shiksa (being that I’m Satmar, I’m not so good in ivrit. lol), but by no means did I intent to paint you as such. I ask that you forgive me.

 
At February 20, 2006 11:09 PM, Blogger her nor said...

"Speaking about 'verbal diarrhea' let’s establish: Who keeps on throwing the 'bi' word without hesitation, just because someone had the chutzpah of going online and claim to be content??? '

Wrong. just because someone has the chuzpa of being either a two faced liar or just your average hypocrite. I never said Shaitel was BI. She herself did.

 
At February 20, 2006 11:16 PM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

I never noticed the comment, but the fact that you did, and your obvious obsession by constantly repeating it, tells me where YOUR mind is 24/7!

 
At February 20, 2006 11:36 PM, Blogger her nor said...

"and your obvious obsession by constantly repeating it,"

"Speaking about 'verbal diarrhea' let’s establish: Who keeps on throwing the 'bi' word without hesitation, just because someone had the chutzpah of going online and claim to be content??? "....................................................................................................................................................................................

J--K, ever heard of the Rorschach joke?

You never noticed the comment because there is no comment. Let's just say some of us are privy to more than you, JK from KJ, are.

 
At February 21, 2006 12:54 AM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Jk:

Have you ever heard of this phrase? Ich darf nisht dien biss in nisht dien honig?
I don't need your sympathy or support, I'm thankfull to god that I'm no longer apart of the hypocrisy thats going on in the chassidish communities I lived in, You don't need to use satmar as an excuse for not knowing ivrit , You know very well what a zoyna means I'm sure.

I have nothing to forgive you for, since YOU only hurt your self more than YOU can ever hurt me.

 
At February 21, 2006 9:33 AM, Blogger JK from KJ said...

begreatfull, point well taken.

You say, “You know very well what a zoyna means I'm sure.”

That’s indeed true, but I wasn’t sure about the exact definition to your self proclaimed ‘Shikse’ word and whether these two terms are interchangeable. Would you please elucidate?

Her nor:

I think it’s highly unprofessional to make libelous remarks in public and then shove off the rest of us by saying "I know more than all of you think you can ever know and just shut up."

If you can’t back up your accusation then take back your move! Don’t attack while hiding under I-know—it-all shield! Say "I’m a sore loser and I won’t admit it."

 
At February 21, 2006 9:46 AM, Blogger yeshivaguy said...

jk/kj:

Give it a rest, will you?

 
At February 21, 2006 10:17 AM, Blogger her nor said...

You're right J- -K. I am unprofessional.
I feel bad. You won't be able to sleep at night for a loooooong time now.

 
At February 21, 2006 11:20 AM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

JK:

That’s indeed true, but I wasn’t sure about the exact definition to your self proclaimed ‘Shikse’ word and whether these two terms are interchangeable. Would you please elucidate?

By the way You spell it SHIKSA not shikse, But I guess in satmar They say shikse, Besides that in satmar they probalby use Shikse & Zoyna in the same sentence By them it goes hand in hand, I'm not even surprised that you ask me to Elucidate or weather or not they are interchangable.
I Don't blame you for your ignorance.. but acting stupid with me, Wont get you far.. You got my point the first time.

 
At February 21, 2006 5:23 PM, Blogger pinke-budgies said...

Her Nor.

I love this name my husband calls me by the same name. Are we cousins

 
At February 21, 2006 6:47 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

Pinke:

If your husband calls your her nor, and if that makes you cousin, then maybe where cousin's too..

Well, I have not been called that way in a while, I too love that name, Her nor, what a great choice, Her nor tzi rebbetzin, That was such typcail phrase I use to hear all the time back in the days, Woo its been a while..

I actualy love yiddish, I think it's a very experssive language that can never be transalated in any other language.
I cherish that my kids speak it well too.

 
At February 21, 2006 11:33 PM, Blogger Begreatfull said...

goes with the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron-Zalman_Conflict

 
At March 07, 2006 4:29 PM, Blogger cafe_28 said...

Begreatfull, are u a woman who went to Satmar school in willy?? I didnt realize that the vocabulary and spelling taught there is soooo bad! You should read some more; it might help.

In this instance, I must agree with you, and disagree with sheitel.
There ARE very many families being raised the way you describe your being raised. While Sheitel will say that not even 5 girls in her class can relate to that, I will say that , out of 37 classmates, at least 25 were raised that way.

Sheitel, open your eyes. Be realistic.

 
At March 15, 2006 2:41 PM, Blogger Hack a leiben said...

Wanna comment on Your English laungage,doesn't come close to Williamsburgh,satmar graduates.
(correct me If I'm wrong.)

 
At March 15, 2006 2:43 PM, Blogger Hack a leiben said...

How's sex life out there in willi,how do the satmar girls take it?the word alone is it BAD? I'd love to hear...

 

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